USMC/ Combat Helicopter Association

[tripper]

Just received the latest issue of Pop A Smoke. I believe that Roger (our elder statesman) is right on point and I am in total agreement with him. What an excellent way to assure that our organization will continue it's legacy. Besides, I really like the proposed name, which signifies us as members of a very unique group.

Oddly enough, I just had a conversation with some of the members of the local VFW Post. They were concerned about their dwindling membership and wondered why there were so few Vietnam Veterans willing to join. Having had the same experience as Charlie Maddocks, I reminded them that if they hadn't been such rotten pr***s to us when we returned from combat maybe they would have more members.


Way to go Rog, what a great idea.

Semper Fi All

[pm3777]

Presume the latest must be the title apparently changed. Having been there WWII, Korea , Vietnam +couple operations I never could distinguish the difference , a Veteran was a Veteran. Never was present for the returing celebrations or spitting idiots as the case might have been. As a USMC regular had my tours extended for occupation etc. However when I attended the WWII reunions found that most of them only served during that 4 year period and were isolated pretty much from any other conflict. The Korean group pretty much felt like it was a forgotten war and seldom participated in reunions. I found that I had progressed through these periods and felt more at home with the Vietnam veterans. I am sure that some others like Col Clapp felt the same. We have heard very little on the NOTAM Board from that particular group and I am aware only to well that we are a small & disappearing group. Most I served with in later years were the age of my sons & daughters. I considered them as my sons & brothers. Hope that whatever the changes are that this organization will accept each of us as individuals in a close family & hear our voices!! Semper Fi PM

[GEORGE CURTIS]

I served 4 tours in Vietnam (67-71) flying as a Crew Chief in all of them earning my Combat Air Crew Wings over and over again crewing UH-34Ds, UH-1E Gunships and CH-46s.

I had the extraordinary privilege of doing in all over again in Grenada and Beirut as a Crew Chief in UH-1N Gunships and CH-46s.

I was present and "PROUD" to participate in the awarding of the Combat Air Crew Wings to 35 enlisted Marines of HMM-261 for Combat action in Grenada and Beirut , HMM-261 lost CH-46s, AH-1T Tow Cobras and CH-53S along with three KIA Pilots and a number of wounded. Having experienced first hand Combat in Vietnam over 4 different years in three different types of Helicopters, I am PROUD to sit in the company of those Combat Air Crew that followed us after Vietnam.

I would be PROUD to welcome those Air Crews, Officer and Enlisted as POPASMOKE Combat Air Crew BROTHERS.

[stationbreak261]

Having read the proposal, I agree whole heartly. George is correct (as usual). Let act on this.

[Top A]

Well put MGySgt Curtis, the FNG's Combat Air Crews desire our respect and welcome. They are flying in harms way to keep a world free to say what we want on this site and wherever. I Thank Them.
Top C thank you for all your tours, you let someone stay home.
I was in Oki when Gernada went down, we knew little about it, but knew something was happening from increased combat training.
I also agree wiyh the post VFW was going to join at Whidbey Island in 73/74 but got trash about how NAm Vets were not vets but killers etc from some WWII people so told them to stick it, Have no loca one here so sent email to their site and asked how do I find closet one, got all different reason why no one could tell, just an long distance phone nr not toll free.

[Ed Egan]

I think that the name change and the gesture of inclusion is great. We can and should welcome these new "salts"; they are doing what we did, and I'll bet most of us envy them. We may have aged out, but we're not "armchair commandoes".

As long as they can spell UH-34, and pay appropriate homage to the origins of this association of characters, then they should be welcomed aboard.

Maybe they'll even put some character and fresh approaches into the dialogues that may evolve. It would be welcome.

[BenBrenneman]

I have a simple question. Why limit the proposed expansion to "combat" Marines? What exactly qualifies as "combat" - feet dry on some operation, or just in the carrier task force, or what else? In other words, why not include all Marine Helo veterans?

[Joe Reed]

Ben,
This Association has always welcomed brother and sister Marines with open arms. The previous criteria was Marines, Helicopters or Vietnam. Now it includes Combat from all eras, officially. The Helicopter folks, Pilots and Crews have always been welcome here. Although I have yet to receive my new newsletter that everyone is talking about, that is my understanding.
Welcome aboard.
Semper Fi
Joe

[K.D. Logue]

I think welcoming our younger brother's into our organization is long over due. As it was said earlier we envy them, and I for one admire them. I work for NADep Cherry Point as a CH-53E mechanic and have the pleasure to work along side several Iraqi Freedom veterans and they are no different than we were when we came home. Not all who served in the theater had the priviledge to crew aircraft or pilot them, but they supported them and they should be welcomme as well.

Welcome Marine Brothers and Sisters !!!

Semper Fi, K.D. Logue

[Bull79Dog]

When I joined in 1998 it was because the servicemen & women "were special", fighting on foreign soil & America fighting against us, calling us baby killers & murders. It was an "unpopular" war, but we followed orders & did our duty. Todays wars are american approved & present a whole different approach to the new serviceman & women. Let them form there own group, we will :ALWAYS: be Vietnam Veterans & damn proud of it~~~!

The "whole" world knows us as USMC/Vietnam Helicopter Association or "Pop A Smoke"~~!

Why change a "good" name for a new name?

I DON'T agree that the name should be changed, Pop A Smoke is Pop A Smoke~~!

[Joe Reed]

Pop A Smoke is the web site name and that wouldn't change, as I understand it.

Semper Fi
Joe

[Garfield411]

I would like to thank all of you for allowing us FNG's to join this organization. When I was told about this site I did not think I could become a member because I did not serve in Viet Nam. But as I read the posts in the NOTAM board I found that I have had some of the same experiences, I decided to submit my application to join and was accepted into this prestigious group of Marines. I have been a crewchief on the CH-53D while on active duty and on the UH-1N while in the reserves. I had the privaledge to work with and learn from many Viet Nam veterans. Most of my knowledge of the CH-53D came from Marines that flew and worked on them in Viet Nam. For that I am thankful, the knowledge I gained from these Marines has stayed with me through the years and to this day I could still fire up the APU and do my pre-flight checks. While in Desert Storm my C.O. was Al Boudreaux a Viet Nam UH-34/CH-46 pilot. In addition to Col. Boudreaux, we still had a few senior enlisted Viet Nam vets in the squadron, they all contributed to our success as a unit and we all learned from them. They calmed the fears and concerns of some of our younger Marines, and were determined not to let us make mistakes that would get us killed. Thanks for letting me ramble on, I am proud to be a member of this organization, no matter what it's name is. Semper Fi.

Chris Breaux
Crewchief UH-1N, CH-53D
HML-767, HMH-362, HMM-261, HMH-461

[GEORGE CURTIS]

I do not believe there is any thought of changing the POP A SMOKE name.

The idea put forth as I read it is to open "Full Membership" up to the USMC Helicopter types and their support personnel like Corpsman and Flight Surgeons that have served the USMC Helicopter community in Combat since Vietnam to include Marines serving in Helicopter Units of all MOSs.

As I read the newsletter, I believe the name change to USMC Combat Helicopter Association in place of USMC Vietnam Helicopter Association is a simple welcome mat put forth to open our ranks of Full Membership to these Combat Brothers.

[Ed Egan]

Good reply, Curt. I welcome the opportunity to agree with you.

Despite Mack's caution, and as Joe Reed well pointed out, Pop A Smoke is merely the name of this site, not of our Association.

The Association has evolved and expanded to be more properly inclusive from the very start and has had name changes in order to reflect that. Originally, it was just for pilots - Roger and some of his cohorts. Then, realizing that we were never alone, the white knights of the cockpit, we made sure that we included our aircrews. Since avionics, metalshop, etc. was all essential in getting our butts into the air, accomplishing the mission, and safely rtb, we became an organization to include all who were involved in our common bond: Marines, Helicopters, Vietnam. That was our focus, our raison d'etre.

Now that our sons, the next generation of Marines, are undergoing the same experience of sucking up the seat cushion, of being burned from the hot brass as they throw out fire, it is not only proper, but consistent with the spirit of our charter, that we include them.

We don't exist for the purposes of wannabes, camp followers, curiosity seekers, and non-hackers. That is the tail wagging the dog. They may perhaps follow along, as the tail does with the dog, but they should remain at the appropriate end of the dog.

Ours was a unique experience that is now being renewed by a new breed being Marines in the face of the enemy. Let's keep that focus: Marines - Helicopters - Combat.

In our case, it's an eligibility earned a long time ago by having been through a crucible. It is being renewed today by a new breed in the Middle East. And really, as they conduct themselves with dedication to duty, courage and honor, they are part of an unbroken line.

We need to welcome them or we deny ourselves. They might bring a shake and wake to an increasingly moribund group, bringing with them the fire of recently shared experience and the why and the how of it.

Not to be "elitist", but we lose our unique being if we do not restrict membership and opinionated participation to those who have served in combat active helicopter operations, to include, of course, support roles.

Welcome aboard, New Breed. We're proud of you, we envy you, and you keep our long-ago role relevant.

[pm3777]

Larry you posed a question that many have wondered about. You than asked the same question many have asked. Where are the voices of the lost members?? Looks like that is the problem. The term "Full membership" should include the consideration of these Marines imputs. Does not require that each time there is a disagreement that the established program would be changed. The Marine Corps I knew had a cross section of Marines all with their views , but still all Marines with a common bond. Seems like a good idea to include Marines that are serving now as we all have at some period . As KD said we envy those that are in active service & know that they carry on with the efforts that all of us gave to the Corps. Seems "Communication & Consideration" as Marines & for Marines should take priority over "policticaly correctness". " Combat Helicopter Association" This suggests an elite Helicopter group. There is a lot of leeway as to which Helicopter missions are classified as "Combat". Med evacs VS gunship, resupply , insertions. Too much that is subjective to administrative orders. When you are being shot at and completing your assigned task , expect you think perhaps this might be combat !!! So much for this voice from the ancient past. Semper Fi PM

[Bull79Dog]

When I joined, I joined because it was "VIETNAM", I know this group started with Helo Pilots with a membership of 200, so as time marches on the membership will drindle
again to 200 & eventually gone. That's the way it suppost to be: FOR VIETNAM VETS~!@

I DON'T agree that we welcome Army, Navy, Airforce & civilians to our membership, it just make "keeping in touch" & "sharing vietnam" stories that much harder with the younger servicemen.

COMBAT~! I think NOT, what about the helo crews & support group of non-combat??

To many questions come up with a name change~! It changes the "original" idea & membership. Let the new guys form there own group. I recommend that we leave it alone~!

[Joe Reed]

Bulldog,
While I see your points, I must respectfully disagree. I don't, however, see where we are inviting other service branches to join here as you suggest. We're still Marines with a few Corpsmen thrown in for good measure.
The guys from Desert Storm, under Bush 41, even flew the same airplanes we flew in Viet Nam. Heck, the CH-46 folks STILL are! I think we owe them that respect.
Ed Egan's words say it very well.
Semper Fi, Sir
Joe

[Allyn Hinton]

We just had 3,000 USMC/VIETNAM HELICOPTER ASSOCIATION patches made for the reunion, and it is too late to change them now.

I remember that at the 1996 reunion some Marine helicopter crewmen from the Korean War were welcome aboard. Since I don't think I'll be one of the last 2 guys, I don't have a problem letting the the next generation come aboard. At the 2002 reunion we were lucky to get aircraft, and crews from my old squadron HML-167. They were younger than us, but cut from the same material.

Allyn Hinton, Vietnam and Desert Storm Vet.

[LARRY POWELL]

As you can see, I have deleted both of my earlier postings. My dues are due November of this year. I will not be renewing them and will become one of those that has left this bunch of politically correct, self-serving, egotistical, better than thou people. Do want you want with the Association without the input of the general membership. We don't count in your minds anyway. I prefer that you no longer make any contact with me because I simply have come to the conclusion that I don't like you. Thanks for times past, it is very evident they will not be repeated.
Semper Fi
Gunny Powell

[robby]

As much as we would like to think that we have an exclusive right to our membership, (just as some before us did), what our brother's in arms have done and are doing now gives them the right and privilege of belonging to our organization. When I read about it in the latest issue of Pop-a-Smoke, it made me feel good to realize that we had evolved as far as we have. Keep up the good work.

Semper Fi

[Top A]

In my earlier post I stated that welcomeing the New Breed aboard was OK. But a NAME Change No Way, That's one of the reasons I visit this site. As others have stated it allowed me to find old friends. But sounds like the HEAD SHELD has made thier minds up and it's their show. A;ready seen many disappear from using site with the lost of "Ready Room", and this board they do not want conversations expect about Marines, NAM etc can not have any like ready room did or a instant message between two or three people.
Guess leaders are under the Mushrooms or maybe like a patch I saw in the book "The Raid, " Kept in the dark and feed horse ****"

[Joe Reed]

Gunny Mack has made me aware that we have members from other branches of the Armed Forces in our Association. I guess I have been asleep at the wheel here, as I haven't noticed. How come?? Why are Air Force, Army, etc in the Marine association? I certainly understand and support Corpsmen and the like that flew with us days on end. I have NOTHING against the fine men and women that wear the other uniforms, however, why are they in this association?? I keep asking the question because I can't answer it myself, though I've tried. Please help.....
Semper Fi
Joe

P.S. Gunny Mack,
Please accept my apologies for my taking issue before checking out the facts!

[karefre]

This is the first time I have opened my mouth on the forum, but want to give my input. I have read the previous posts and pondered on them for at least five minutes. I believe I must side with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" group.
I am proud of our servicemen of today and I too believe that we are ALL a band of brothers, BUT we have all that in the Marine Corps League! And if you are a veteran of a foreign war, you can join the VFW or the Amvets.
Some day some fella well start the Desert Storm Chopper Floppers and they can decide who they want to have in their group. BUT we are a special bunch and we talk about special things that only we know about. One day we will pass on to the eternitys and our little organization can pass on with us. We have an identity now, we are different from all the other service organizations, why not keep it that way? Do we want to be a little for everybody or alot for us few and proud?
Thanks for all that you guys do. Remember that this great country was founded on a constitution that is VERY HARD to make any changes to! And it was designed that way for a purpose.
Thanks for hearing out this ole gyrene. Love you guys

[Garfield411]

I just recieved my copy of the news letter, and I read the article that is in question. I have to agree, the name change is a nice proposal. Being a Marine that served after the Viet Nam war, I appreciate the oppertunity to be considered for full membership. I feel that I may not be qualified to speak on this subject, but I since I am a Marine I can put my two cents in. There will never be another war like Viet Nam, just like there will never be another Desert Storm. We all have two things in common with each other, one we are Marines, and two, we served in combat. Both wars were conducted in very different fashions. My uncle who was a Marine veteran of Iwo Jima once said to me that as times change, wars and conflicts will be conducted differently. As it turned out, he was right.
I too have have gone to the VFW hall and wanted to join, but some of the older crowd were cold to the question of allowing a Desert Storm veteran into their little group. I got the feeling that if you did not earn a Purple Heart or a Distinguished Flying Cross then you were not a "real" combat veteran. They needed to see my DD-214 to verify combat in a foreign conflict. The comment was made "Oh, I see you were awarded Combat Aircrew wings and an AIr Medal, the Marines must have been desperate for hero's" That comment sealed it for me. I have never been back since and throw away the letters asking me to join.
I hope that the proposed name change does not cause members to look elseware, that would be a shame. As for being part of the "New Breed" as Mr. Ed Egan put it, I thank you for the oppertunity to be a member of this group.

Chris Breaux
Crewchief UH-1N and CH-53D
HML-767, HMH-362, HMM-261, HMH-461

[Ray Norton]

I think we should step lightly and slowly. Don't just "ready, fire, aim."

As I watch my father-in-law's legacy change, I see lots of problems and hurt feelings.

He was an orginal WW II UDT 3 member and fought in the Pacific Theatre. Originally, there was a UDT 3 Veterans group as part of a larger UDT Veterans Group.

Over time, the seals were allowed to join. Also, over time the number of WW II Vets has substantially declined in both numbers and health. The original UDT 3 members are almost non-existant.

Recently, the board of the Fort Pearce UDT / Seal Museum changed the name to Navy Seal Museum. It created lots of hurt feelings.

In building a consensus, I suggest doing two different and difficult things: keep the Vietnam legacy, but recognize that in a few decades we will be all gone. Therefore, some change and transition will be inevitable. Fifty years from now, if its just Geo Curtis and me left, we will want an organization, we will want to be recognized as 'Nam veterans, but we would not want only two members!

[popasmoke]

Gunny Mack, Gunny Powell and Jardo,

To you I say this. Would you have our history die with us? The history we have worked so hard to collect and to record correctly?
When the last two of us drink from the Tontine, the Association will end. With that our website will shut down and we will be forgotten? Do you think the teachers in our schools are going to teach the children our history as it actually happened? Or would we be remembered as “baby killers and drug addicts”? There are very few people like Allyn Hinton and Jim Hatch out there teaching our children the real story of Marine helicopters in Vietnam. Once we are gone we can expect that our role in the history of Vietnam and the Cold War will be forgotten or at best distorted.
As Roger Herman said, if the Association was to change our name and membership qualifications, we will continue to maintain our identity as Vietnam Veterans. Our logo would still be the UH-34 that flew in Vietnam and our by-laws would still say that the Association was founded by Marine Corps helicopter pilots that flew together in Vietnam. Amended to include crewmembers and then all helicopter personnel, Corpsmen, Flight Surgeons and Chaplains as well. If amended again it would include all Marine Corps Helicopter personnel who served in a combat situation.
We will not be losing our identity as Vietnam Veterans if we choose to allow all Marine helicopter personnel who served in combat to join our Association, but will be doing what Marines have done since 1775. We will be keeping the faith, carrying the torch, remembering and honoring our brothers who passed before us.
I don’t understand how a Marine could see what our young Marines are going through in Iraq (as well as Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama, Bosnia and Somalia) and say they are not good enough or do note rate to be a part of us. What it all comes down to is that we are Marines. Not Vietnam Marines, not Iraq Marines, but Marines first and foremost. Marines who volunteered to go to war and carried the torch from the previous generation. I personally, in good conscious, could not tell a brother Marine who flew in combat that they are not worthy to join our Association just because they didn’t serve in Vietnam. As the poem by Michael Norman says, these are the Marines who will “have carried my reputation, the memory of me.” These Marines are our legacy.

[Garfield411]

As I said in my earlier post we ALL have two things in common, one, service in the United States Marine Corps and two, combat service. Our fellow Marine helicopter crews that served in Beirut, Grenada, Persian Gulf, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Desert Storm and Marines serving now in Afganistan and Iraq all have those things in common also.
It should never be forgotten that Viet Nam Veterans started this organization. Just as it should never be forgotten that you all were Marines also. Just like the younger guys we are talking about. Thank you all for letting me put my two cents in.


Chris Breaux
Crewchief UH-1N, CH-53D
HML-767, HMH-362, HMM-261, HMH-461

[pm3777]

I felt honored to be accepted as a member of this organization after having participated in WWII VMTB-232 Gp, the VFW & the HMX-1 reunions. All were Marines, some of us served in all three conflicts, WWII, Korea & Vietnam + some ops. Never ocurred to me that anyone in those conflicts needed to produce a purple heart or other proof of being a hero to qualify. Being a Marine and have done his duty in whatever the mission required was adequate. I fully agree with the proposal to accept our brothers that share the title Marine & Helicopters & combat . Not sure what the fuss is about Airforce, Navy & Army being members. Expect they had some connection that at least earned them Honorary membership. I know several Marines that were later in the Army , Navy etc after their Marine service & this certainly should not disqualify them if their prior service was as stated in this Gp. I served with the USAF Advisory Gp in Vietnam 4 years as VNAF Advisor Test Pilot after having served in MAG16 prior to retirement. Than again with the MAG-36 rotating Sqds for 14 years 1973-1987 as Senior Sikorsky Rep . I was certainly proud to serve with all these generations of Marines & as stated before felt that they were my sons & brothers!! (some of them I did serve previously with their fathers). Apolagize for the long winded oratory but appreciate the opportunity to be able to say it. Semper Fi PM

[Bull79Dog]

As of 1300 6/25/04 the vote to change the name is running 2 to 1 in favor~! SAD, another "elite" website gone, another era of Marines gone~! 35 years ago, I was in VIETNAM sharing the combat experience with Marines like me, giving my all & returning to America who "shut me out". All I have left is my brothers who shared the same experiences as I did. In 1998 when I joined, I was excited~! I found Marines who I could relate to & understood what I was talking about. In 2000 I attended the reunion in San Diego,
impressive~! Now membership has changed, for the worse by letting in other branches of the service & civilians. SAD DAY~!

Most of our fighting men & women of today were NOT even born yet when we were fighting!
They do not understand, nor will ever relate
to our mission, our concerns & our fears of coming back to "the world" & being spit upon.

Our "HISTORY' will continue on without us by historians, books & pictures. But our personal feelings of being in VIETNAM will never be shared by todays Marine.

'I WILL WRITE NO MORE ON THIS SUBJECT"

Respectfully

[sgtdave]

I was a member of a VFW post, which I won't mention the name, who allowed anyone to enter in. It was an open post and anyone could come in and buy a drink. I was taken back by the people who came in and had no regard for those who were members, or even cared about the organization itself. Yes, the VFW made money and that was their motive of survival. They were just like any bar you wanted to enter in any other city. What is uniqueness? Is it important? Will we lose our uniqueness by opening it up to others?

I have read all the remarks. I must say I am divided on how I feel. On the one hand I see how we should keep our future by opening it up to others, but on the other hand it is not always a bad thing when we die out. I believe history will always lack something and not be told exactly after those who made it die out. My Dad, WWII vet, who died recently, had a lot of history die when he died. I think I am the only one who knows a lot of what he went through because I took the time to talk with him about it. Will I pass that on, well, not all of it, because some of it died with him.

I plan on staying in Popasmoke as long as I can sit down and have a drink, a good reunion with friends, and add what I can to improve it to the best of my ability. I don't want to see comrades leave because of politics. I think we might lose something of our uniqueness if we open it up to others, but as long as we can stay together as a team we will always be on the winning side of any disagreement and keep our own uniqueness. If you think about it we are individually unique in that each squadron has it's own hootch at every reunion with it's own unique way of doing what they want, yet they share a common reunion. Maybe we can keep that going no matter who joins in with their hootch. The United States will only fall, as Lincoln once said, from within (basically put, but that was his meaning). It looks like I am in it until they drag my ugly body out and throw it in the ground. The bottom line, I want everyone to stay in the organization, even if it changes, with that, SEMPER FI, Always Faithful, I LOVE THOSE WORDS.

[Walt]

Since Popasmoke is allowing Marines of today join the ranks I don't think combat should be a requirement to join. Ever Marine that was part of Marine helicopters should be allowed to join. How many times did a squadron deploy to put out a fire somewhere and with the ships just being off shore solve the problem with out firing a shot. The Marines in those squadrons where ready to give all if called on to do so but did not earn any Air Crew Combat Wings. I say again if we are going to open the ranks it should be for all Marine helicopter people , past, present and future. SF

[Slick]

But sounds like the HEAD SHELD has made thier minds up and it's their show.

Top A,
Couldn't agree more.

[Tom Thompson]

I thought long and hard about posting a reply - I couldn't resist.

I recently received a letter from the reunion committee at my (old) High School. They were trying to float the idea of consolidating all of the classes into one BIG reunion. The reasoning was that by using that format, they could put together a bigger, better event.

After several months on rather contentious conversation we came to the conclusion that the event would be a huge cluster - - - -, having 30 separate groups wanting nothing to do with the others. We (I), have nothing in common with the Class of 1999.
I don't like the music, don't like the attitude and find myself diametrically opposed to most of they're views. It wouldn't work.

I am a Marine Frequent Wind Vet and was drawn to this site by the words MARINE and VIETNAM. You fella's are an exclusive group of Marine Vietman Veterans, born and raised in a different ttime with different values and different experiences. We all talk about the old farts at the VFW and they're unwillingness to accept the new blood as members - I think it may have something to do with shared experiences, shared hardships and shared loss. It's your organization - I think there something to be said for exclusivity - you earned it.

[Howdy]

First of all, let me say that it hurts to see my brothers fighting with each other. We fought side by side in Viet Nam, and that is where the fighting should be left.

It is my understanding that this is a proposal, not a directive. We should be able to debate the issue without coming to the conclusion that it has already been decided.

I feel the change would be good for several reasons, and don't think we have to lose our unique identity.

Within the "USMC Combat Helicopter Association" we could have the Viet Nam Division, the Desert Storm Division, the Persian Gulf Division, etc. If you want to remain separated from any other division, it is your choice.

I am proud and honored that our younger brothers in Afghanistan and Iraq have come to us asking for help with information on the way we did things in Nam, and also that the sons and daughters of our fallen brothers have come to us looking for information about the fathers they never knew.

It is important to keep our history alive, and what better way than with fellow Marines? They may not be from the same era, but they share that common bond. Semper Fi

Bruce "Howdy" Mayor
HMM-161 ('69-'70)

[spook]

Gentlemen:
I think that the name and orginal organization stay as it was first designed. We have all been in places that looked done on the Viet Nam Vets. We have to keep this piece of history. Many of us are dropping every month. Also I am one of those Marines that had service in other services. I was wounded in the Corps; and not allowed to reenlist. I left the Corps and was immediately accepted by the US Air Force Active Reserve. I ended up as a load
master on C-141 air craft with 62d Military Air Lift Wing, Mchord AFB. Due to cut backs the airforce dropped the active flying reserve componet of the 62d Wing. I then joing joined the US Army; again welcomed because of the Marine back ground. I spent 12.5 years in the Army, from playing Sovieet Soldier at National Training Center. To Walter Reed Army Medical Center, to Europe as a "Special Courier" and several years working for the Ass't Secretary of Defense, Health Affairs. Total federal service in excess of 28 years.During retirement I participated in the First Gulf war by helping to provide medical coverage of Marines' Sailors, and the Army. Now I try to keep busy working with our
homeless and underserved veterans. Have a great day.
John Bell (Spook)
Strawn,Tx 76475
HML-167, H&MS-16, VMGR-152, HQ G1 !st MAW
3bn 9th Marines
USAFR 62d MAW C141
US ARMY Retired
Federal Civil Service
Civil Employment

[Brian Baker]

Having been a member of this Assoc. since 1997, a prior Board Member and (3) time Squadron Coordinator, I can't express the part this group has played in filling a void in my psyche. Some have expressed the opinion that our ranks should be kept exclusionary, restricted to those who served in Vietnam. Many of us encountered that same attitude from the VFW. I submit that if we take that course, we'll end up like the Shakers. The obscure religious group from the 1800's that bred, or rather unbred themselves out of existence! As was the case in WWII, and Korea, we had and have a rich history of accomplishment, sacrifice, courage, and honor in our service in Vietnam, but so to do those who have carried the torch after us, as we carried it for those who went before. We all know that during our time, we didn't give a damn about politics. The most important things to us were our squadron, our buddies, and the grunts we served. Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, or Iraq, the pucker factor is the same. The courage, honor, commitment, tragedy, and agony that we shared, is now being shared by those Marines who follow us. Some posts have indicated that todays Marines can't relate to what we experienced. Bull! I see this as an opportunity to keep this Assoc. viable, and in the hands of those who most certainly can relate. As a previous post stated, the operant words being Marine, Combat, Helicopters. As we have carried the memory and traditions of those who preceded us, i.e., from fighting the Barbary corsairs in the battle of Tripoli, the Battle of Blandensburg, the battle of the Castle of Chapultepec and the Halls of Montezuma, the capture of Fort Fisher in the Civil War, the Boxer Rebellion, Belleau Wood, Guadacanal, the Solomons, the Gilberts, the Marshalls, the Marianas, Palaus, the Phillipines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Korea, Pusan, Inchon, the Chosin Resevoir, Lebanon, the Dominican Republic in 1965, Vietnam, TET, Khe Sahn, Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and Iraq, have all become part of the Marine pantheon. I have no doubt these young Marines will carry our memory also. The proposed change not only honors them, but we honor ourselves by fully including them. If the Tontine never gets opened, so be it! I kinda like the thought of a Marine carrying my "memory" for as long as there's a Corps! Let these young warriors in!

Semper Fi,

[Lucky The Dog]

Guys -

It is obvious from all of the replies on this thread, that you have all received and read the latest Pop A Smoke newsletter. Unfortunately, some of you seem to have read something different than what was printed and jumped to some erroneous conclusions.

As the author of the newsletter piece, let me clarifly a few points to those of you who disagree with the concept of the name change of the organization and the allowing in (as full fledged members) of those Marine combat helicopter aircrews who have been and are continuing to carry on our tradition...

1. The name of our organization has changed three times since its inception in 1986. This is not the first time as some have stated.

2. I am not proposing allowing in members from all other services.

3. The name "Pop A Smoke" doesn't go away, nor does our logo sticker with the "smiley '34" on it. Only the word "Combat" gets substituted for the word "Vietnam."

4. Incidentally, for those who have not noticed before, when I made up the original logo design, the background was specifically created to be a replica of the South Vietnamese flag. That doesn't change. Our Vietnam origins will live on in the logo.

5. Were we to implement this change, by vote of the membership, the Association would still continue to be run by those of us who started and have continued to run the organization...the Vietnam vets...until we are all gone.

6. Hundreds of thousands, no millions, of manhours have been put into the building of this organization by a relatively few. Do you really want to see it disappear when we do? I think not.

7. Just because we fought in Vietnam, does that make us any better than any other Marine who has fought to defend this country...whether we are talking about our fathers in WWII at Guadalcanal, Iwo, etc. or our sons in Iraq and Afghanistan...and other battlefieds soon to follow. Did we get a raw deal when we fought in Vietnam and when we came home? Without a doubt we did...but get over it and get on with your life. **** happens...I don't like losing either.

8. We are in WWIII, in my opinion, and it will continue until such time as the Islamic extremists are completely taken out. It will be a long war and we are going to lose a lot of troops and civilians.

9. I challenge all that would oppose this idea of opening up the Association to fellow Marine combat helicopter pilots and aircrew to do this...Look one of them directly in the eye and tell them they are not worthy of belonging to a group that was started by fellow Marines just like them, but just happened to have fought in a different war. The bond that ties us all will not change, and the nucleus of the organization will continue to be the Vietnam vet...until we are all gone. And we are losing a lot of guys these days. We are not that far behind the passing of the WWII generation.

10. Finally, I would urge all who are truly interested and want to get involved in their own Association, to attend the annual BOD meeting that will be held in Reno on Wednesday, July 7th in the afternoon at the Reno Hilton. It is open to all members. If you really want to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem, get involved. As was said early by one of our members in the forming of our group when some had complaints of one sort or another..."Where were you when the page was blank?"

Semper Fi,

Rog

[GEORGE CURTIS]

Bravo zulu
Roger

[Ed Egan]

Outstanding wrap-up, Duke. The Marine Corps is forever, and we are immortal while the long green line goes on.



Semper Fidelis !!!

[K.D. Logue]

Roger, Roger

I am all for the change, and remember as much as things change the more they remain the same. We are Marines, just because we were in Vietnam and they had war in a country of a different name, it's still the same.

Semper Fi, K.D. Logue 1stSgt USMC (Ret)

[Jack Ubel]

If the name is going to be changed to combat, then you must include Helo folks from the Korean era. HMR 161 was the first Marine Helo sqd. to serve in combat along with VMO 6. I can vividly remember carrying combat troops into zones and recieving heavy ground fire. No different that what I expierenced in my two tours in Vietnam. I would prefer to remain the same, but if we change we must add Korea vets also!!

[Roy Pitt]

I just can't let this get by with a comment. You all talk about helocopters but some of us worked the combo line "uh-1e, cobra, and OV-10. I am a Bronco Buster. We lived in the same hooches at marble, we worked out of the same hanger, and shared the same line. HML-167, HML-367, and VMO-2. When my birds were out we worked what ever was next. Jardo tought me the huie at New River and I took on the cobra because the Sgt. Mjr. said so. I know and except that as a fixed winger , I am only tollerated. Like the little boy that went to the circus said "I'm just so glad to be here".
I come to the reunion for VMO-2 and the cross over built into our squadrons. KD from VMO-6 was my XO at Danang, Hogie with the 46's hung me out a window in New River. Hell, I slept with most of you before I got married, how close we got to be? I got the **** 3 times in a tour and a half , one in country and 2 in Ubon, so sharing is part of our connection. I must say that I am no longer interest in sleeping with you's, because your feet stink, and all I'm interested in sharing is the memories.
So what am I trying to say here? If we increase the ranks do we not dilute the memories, that we all hold so dear. Don't get me wrong, I think this generation of brothers are as good as they come. When they get to be 56 "oh my" they should have a bunch like we have to shoot the breeze with.
When I loose one brother because of (feelings) my life is deminished. I have concluded that I will never find all the guys that worked with and for me on the line, so you's guys are just going to have to take their places.
Roy

[airhmm265]

i was so happy to find this org.back in 99' after looking for years to find some place that the vietnam helo vets had a common
bond this was it ... i spent a long time looking for fellow sqd.
members old and new this is where i found them ....
i truly believe that this is OUR site and ORQ.....
the friends ive rejioned in tall tales with and the common
ground we understand, the feeling the times long spent......
granted our new breed of helo vets desreve the honors they they gained ..... BUT OURS ARE OURS AND SHOULD REMAIN SO !!

WE ARE A RARE BREED LETS KEEP IT SO

[whalvorsen]

Our "Association" is already open to any/all Marines. I've talked to OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom) Marines; they're sharp, brave, genuine heroes and young. They're our future; our 21st Century Marine!

We know our Vietnam-era aircraft and combat missions made us who we are today, just as their aircraft and combat missions make them who they are. We are the same: Marines; and yet, we are different! Our USMC modern technology has assured them of even greater success on their battleground.

Which means, we can always share about beans, bullets and bandages, just ask our Old Corps Honcho, Paul Moore. He's a career Marine who's been in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. But, he chose us, the Vietnam Helicopter Association. Why? Because we're different; just attending one of our Reunions makes it obvious to the most casual observer.

We'll always welcome new Marine Members (Vietnam-era, or otherwise). We will even swap lies (the first liar doesn't have a chance) with the younger Marines until our last old Popasmoke Vietnam Veteran goes to "guard the streets of Heaven".

I believe, then, and only then, our remaining non-Vietnam "Popasmoke" brothers can have our "Popasmoke" website (Wally, you'll probably still be here...) and can creat a new "USMC Combat Association Name" complete with a "Change of Command/Colors and drink our Tontine" ....but until then....We will always be Marines, Vietnam, Helicopters.

BOD, Keep us as USMC/Vietnam Helicopter Association, and know, we will always welcome our "brothers".....No sweat, G.I., payday soon....
Semper Fi.....

[orlando ingvold]

Think about your squadron's reunion tent, bar, beer, chairs, tables set up. In walks a current Marine, in flight suit, sporting your old squadron's patch as his current one. What do you do? Shun him? I do not think so! You want to know what's going on now, how has the equipment changed, what about the guns, rules of engagement, and so on. But this takes nothing away from your interaction with fellow Nam vets, it adds to it. My squadrons, for the most part are gone, VMO's. I qualify for the Helo/Combat designation, Hueys first tour, OV-10's second. I have seen the reception that our on duty Marines have received during a reunion. It has been great but sparse because there were so few there and no VMO types. I think that those who have enjoyed those contacts would agree that we need more of it. The Pop a Smoke union will remain a chiefly Vietnam organization until we all die out, but would it not be great if we left a place where other helo Marines can continue to get together and swap stories and offer others remembrances of friends lost. Hay, this is the best Marine Corps site on the web. But the reunions are even better. I think the newly proposed name is sexy. Like the "Combat" part. Always thought I was in some of that.

Lanny

[IGOR]

Everyone is talking an article in the latest Newsletter. Last one I got was Spring 2004. What is the date on the "NEW" one?

[jrmonroe]

As a member of this organization I have contributed little other than membership fees. I have gotten more from it than I can ever put into words. No matter what happens...I am a proud member! I hope that those who have expressed intent to leave will reconsider..no matter what the outcome. Yes, I'm proud of the squadron I served in, HML-167, as everybody here is. Our age seems to me to be the only differance, none of us had anything to do with when we were born and only our birth date determines where we served. Please remove one vote for undecided and place it in the "Combat" column. Welcome to all my brothers and Semper Fi!

[Jim Martin]

Gentlemen:

Usually I jump into these arguments with gun's blazing only to be way off target. Roger and Jay Dee, not one of us consider ourselves "better" than the current young Marines flying our old air frames. Perhaps it is our "Old Airframes" that make us jealous of these youngsters. Look at "Vietnam Reflections". Look at us 35 years ago. We are our sons and daughters.

Perhaps we worry that these young warriors will think of us as we did our "Lifer" 32+ year old Majors and ancient Lieutenant Colonels. There are many reasons to oppose change of what we created but there are just as many reasons to let "Popasmoke" morph into the future.

Look at our organization as it is today. How many of us would deny those floating 20 miles off shore (in the Gulf of Tonkin) admittance to our hallowed organization? None of us. They have melded into our organization and have been with us since 1988. Our Vietnam motto "...if you are not in the zone you are not in the war." is more symbolic than actual. Usually we would apply this saying to those "combat" pilots who dropped their bomb loads from 42,000 feet or the C-130 pilots who did their monthly 12 touch and go's at Da Nang for their combat pay. Our brothers who floated at the ready would have launched without hesitation. They would even (as did George "Chip" Perrrault) sneak into country to fly a day or two of combat.

I doubt I will live long enough to see the last two Marines from the original USMC/Vietnam Pilots Reunion Association drink from the Tontine (at this time my challange is to out live my new refrigerator's 15 year compressor warranty). I know our younger new "combat" aircrew members will honor and respect and remember the last Vietnam era combat aircrew's passing. We must change, we must ask the veterans of Beirut, Grenada, Panama, Mogadesu, Desert Storm, Bosnia to join with us as men who have shared the smell, challenge and adrenalin of combat.

Without them we will one day become another run-down VFW or AmVets hall with a bunch of drooling old men in polyester pants and Wal-Mart velcro sneakers.

I vote name change. I vote "combat".

Semper Fi,

Jay Em

[Ed Egan]

Well said, Jim. Thanks.

While we old-timers are still around, we'll talk Vietnam. Fine. But the issue really is combat with helicopters, Marine type.

[john a oubre]

I don't post too often, but this controversy on expanding our membership is worthy of comment. I have met Marines who earned their Combat Air Crew Wings in engagements other than Viet Nam. I also have a son who served with MAG-21. All of these Marines that I have met held the highest respect for Viet Nam Vets, especially Air Crew and Pilots. These Marines were truly interested in what we did and I don't think for a minute that they will let our history fade away. I agree wholeheartedly with Roger that we shold open up our organization to them so we can continue to live through them.

Semper Fi,
John A Oubre
HMM-361

[jdullighan]

Of all that I have done in my life/career, being given Combat Aircrew Wings by the crewchiefs of HMM-165 and being accepted as a member of Popasmoke rate the highest. When Joe Morin told me at the reunion last year in Fort Worth that the CAW I was given were his, I was moved to tears.

My wife says that seeing me at the reunions with my USMC buddies gave her an insight into me that she could not have gotten any other way. She did say that she had thought I was unique but now she knows there are thousands just like me.

The proposal leaves me with mixed feelings.

1. I hate to mess with something that works so well.

2. If there had not been changes to the original charter, I could not have been accepted as a member.

On balance I favor the proposed changes.

From a grateful Limey civilian.

[Tom Knowles]

How about this? (or something similar)

USMC/COMBAT HELICOPTER ASSOCIATION

FORMERLY

USMC/VIETNAM HELICOPTER ASSOCIATION

This (or something like this) brings in the NEW meaning of what the CORPS has evolved to AND keeps the ORIGINAL foundation of what we did to bring this GREAT ORGANIZATION into what it has become today. Without us and Vietnam this organization would not exist.

Tom Knowles
VMO-2

[Bill Beardall]

For years prior to the Las Vegas reunion I had been searching for kndred souls. Those souls who spoke my language, who had shared so many of the same experiences, from training to combat and back, and of course who were Marines. I joined the VHPA which turned into an Army Assoc. that arrogantly, but subtly, at first, began to exclude Marines from many decisions and participating in the shaping of the org. I left, once again looking for a home. I found it that weekend in Vegas and since began a long love affair with 'our' association. Friendships were rekindled, old familiar tales were heard again. I was home. Over these many years decisions about inclusion of Aircrew and Korean War veterans were made by Roger Herman. Great decisions! and it was still pretty much his organization so he could do what he wanted.
His latest request, is to once again to change our name and now include the current warriors fighting in too many wars. But I strongly believe that the decision is premature for the following reasons:

1. We have yet to reach the depth of loss the WWII vets have and from what I have seen there seems to be no lagging of spirits to shoulder the responsibilities of this organiation.

2. Mostly strongly! I fear the loss of our identity. Being a Vietnam Vet has set aside from so many other Veterans. High among them was seeing the country turn its back on us. The hostility was palpable from every corner of our world. The worst was the media. We were losers, ( I have an aversion to Lucky the Dog because to me he perpetuates the myth) the first fighting force that 'lost a war.' Personal experiences with the American Legion, the VFW were so negative that I have yet to cross the door of any of the these organizations.
We are unique because we fought back, stood our ground, forced the world to look at for what we were, honest, caring young men who had with honor and distinction done what our Country asked us to do. We have fought for everything we should have been due, to demand help with the Agent Orange issue and forcing the hand of our Nation's leaders to allow us a place, a hallowed piece of ground to honor our dead, to begin our healing.
Yes, we are a part of the larger community of Veterans, now and those to come. But this is our time now, let us keep our group as it, let us avoid the possibility of becoming so much larger that we get lost in the shuffle of these new brave warriors. I have seen it happen.
When the time comes many years down the road we can revisit the inclusion of our new warriors.

3. What now could be a large influx of members would task the organization's administration. Logistics would be an absolute nightmare, to the point were we would have to consider an outside organization to manage it for us, as the VHPA has done...their problems are many and dues increased.
I propose a moratorium on the change of the organiations direction and the change of its name...It should always be/have Vietnam in its name lest we forget and that future generations may forget. Let us wait for for a less emotional time to make this decision.
We are unique! please do not take that from me, from us. Do not take my home from me.

Semper Fi,

Bill Beardall
Dimmer 11 HMH-463

[Bill Beardall]

Roger,
The reason there may be some confusion, and I have read posts from some new combat helo pilots and crew that assume this is a done deal, and, because what we got out of the last POP A SMOKE publication was light on details and heavy on emotions. We are all feeling concerned about what is going on in the world and here close to home with our own Association. It comes across as a done deal, when our founder and the current President come out so strongly in favor of this change, This kind of change should have been raised to the membership as a trial balloon "this is what we are thinking , here are some pro and some cons. We need feedback from you all before we go much forward." Are we ready to go forward if we get a large influx of members to give a professional [for profit] organization our management reins?
#3 says the name Pop A Smoke does not go away, nor does our logo...but when you change Combat for Vietnam the association begins to shift.
#5 You propose to make our new warrior members full members but it sounds like they will be in name only. 'We will run it...'until we are all gone.' so, then they are not full members , Associates perhaps?
#6 No one wants the organization to disappear but it will when we are gone. We will be remembered and talked about for many, many years to come. We will have the stories we submit, there will be oral histories and videos to view time and time again.
#7 I have not read in any post where any of us think we are better than any Marine that fought and are fighting our Nation's battles. Beyond what we experienced when we came back, what we experienced there was radically different than any combatants since...remember not being able to return fire over certain zones?, having to check with village chiefs if was OK to do so...take a hill today, give it up tomorrow, the heck with those who died in the taking. WE did not lose the war, history tells us why we left...Mission unaccomplished!
#9 None of us believe these men and women are undeserving of an organization such as ours. It would be good for them to find their special place where they can share their memories. I sit around and listen to my father-in law tell his stories about Saipan, Tarawa, Okinawa and I can appreciate and listen in awe. There is a connection, but I will never fully appreciate what they went through as we will not those in Iraq and Afghanistan, nor they ours.
Our numbers do get smaller but we are not at a critical mass yet, nor will be for awhile.
#10 I strongly believe that this reunion is not the time to make a decision. This is a decision that must be made by the whole membership be it by email or snail mail. It should be preceded by calm, cool, open and frank discussions. It is our organization and still the USMC/Vietnam Helicopter Association.

Semper Fi

Bill Beardall



Originally posted by Lucky The Dog
Guys -

It is obvious from all of the replies on this thread, that you have all received and read the latest Pop A Smoke newsletter. Unfortunately, some of you seem to have read something different than what was printed and jumped to some erroneous conclusions.

As the author of the newsletter piece, let me clarifly a few points to those of you who disagree with the concept of the name change of the organization and the allowing in (as full fledged members) of those Marine combat helicopter aircrews who have been and are continuing to carry on our tradition...

1. The name of our organization has changed three times since its inception in 1986. This is not the first time as some have stated.

2. I am not proposing allowing in members from all other services.

3. The name "Pop A Smoke" doesn't go away, nor does our logo sticker with the "smiley '34" on it. Only the word "Combat" gets substituted for the word "Vietnam."

4. Incidentally, for those who have not noticed before, when I made up the original logo design, the background was specifically created to be a replica of the South Vietnamese flag. That doesn't change. Our Vietnam origins will live on in the logo.

5. Were we to implement this change, by vote of the membership, the Association would still continue to be run by those of us who started and have continued to run the organization...the Vietnam vets...until we are all gone.

6. Hundreds of thousands, no millions, of manhours have been put into the building of this organization by a relatively few. Do you really want to see it disappear when we do? I think not.

7. Just because we fought in Vietnam, does that make us any better than any other Marine who has fought to defend this country...whether we are talking about our fathers in WWII at Guadalcanal, Iwo, etc. or our sons in Iraq and Afghanistan...and other battlefieds soon to follow. Did we get a raw deal when we fought in Vietnam and when we came home? Without a doubt we did...but get over it and get on with your life. **** happens...I don't like losing either.

8. We are in WWIII, in my opinion, and it will continue until such time as the Islamic extremists are completely taken out. It will be a long war and we are going to lose a lot of troops and civilians.

9. I challenge all that would oppose this idea of opening up the Association to fellow Marine combat helicopter pilots and aircrew to do this...Look one of them directly in the eye and tell them they are not worthy of belonging to a group that was started by fellow Marines just like them, but just happened to have fought in a different war. The bond that ties us all will not change, and the nucleus of the organization will continue to be the Vietnam vet...until we are all gone. And we are losing a lot of guys these days. We are not that far behind the passing of the WWII generation.

10. Finally, I would urge all who are truly interested and want to get involved in their own Association, to attend the annual BOD meeting that will be held in Reno on Wednesday, July 7th in the afternoon at the Reno Hilton. It is open to all members. If you really want to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem, get involved. As was said early by one of our members in the forming of our group when some had complaints of one sort or another..."Where were you when the page was blank?"

Semper Fi,

Rog

[dblackwell]

We are getting ready to head west for the reunion and I entered the site to see what was cooking. It seems to me that a lot of people have lots of opinions-that is a good thing. I read Rogers last response and it made sense-

However - with regard to the comments about getting involved, I believe that all the folks who have made comments pro and con have become involved. That proves that this organization is healthy. I don't remember when I found this group, I do remember finding members of 262 after about 30 years. Frankly being with those that I served with in vietnam is the main attraction to me. I can refresh my waining memories and experiences and celebrate what we accomplished and our survival. We can remember those that made the supreme sacrifice.

The full membership should vote on the issue and the results should be respected by everyone.

Semper Fi!

[Ron Luks]

I attended the Marine Corps Ball with HMM263 at New River in July before their second deployment to Iraq, I am in contact and recieve emails from their CO LtCol. Ozzie Osborn, as of this tour which is less than 6 months old, they have 22 Purple Hearts, 1 KIA, I have met these Marine Warriors and they are carrying on the great tradition, they Honored me as one of the Guests of Honor and I honor them as Marine Warriors, they did not forget Viet Nam, we should not forget them. I now believe as long as you are a Marine, in Combat and in Helicopters you belong with us, or should I say we belong with them? I take the qoute " often tested, always faithful, brothers forever" quite seriously. We need to Honor them as well as ourselves. I would like nothing better than to be at a reunion with the old 263 and the new 263 at the same table.

Semper Fi, Ron Luks HMM263 1966/67