V-22 in Theatre

[beddoe]

From: malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net [mailto:malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: V-22 in Theatre

OOOOOOOOORRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHH! Thanks to Art Sifuentes for the picture. Wish I was there with them. Semper Fi, Y'all.

http://www.popasmoke.com/images/thundermark.jpg

[racing agent]

I was part of the restoration crew that restored Mike Clausen's CH-46 dedicated in Charlotte, NC the Weekend of Oct, 20.

The Marine Corps sent one of the V-22 Osprey's to Charlotte to be part of the Static Display next to the CH-46, known as Blood, Sweat, & Tears.

The two Aircraft standing next to each other was a magnificent sight, and was very impressive for all who saw it. Particularly impressive was the landing and the takeoff of the Osprey. What a sight.

OORAH! Marine Corps! VMM-263 will be well received by the Marines and should be feared by the Enemy. I know the crew that I met in Charlotte, and the Marines who crew this Aircraft will do us proud. Carry 0n!

Dennis A. Craycraft

[racing agent]

From: malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net
[mailto:malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: V-22 in Theatre

OOOOOOOOORRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHH! Thanks to Art Sifuentes for the picture. Wish I was there with them. Semper Fi, Y'all.

http://www.popasmoke.com/images/thundermark.jpg

Check out the CH-46's to the right of the Osprey! Still crazy after all these years. Those things were built during the Viet Nam war and still pulling! Carry On!

[beddoe]

new photo posted.

http://www.popasmoke.com/visions/image.php?source=11453

[accs]

If you haven't seen this link you should.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1914019/posts (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1914019/posts)

[steve7680768]

Thanks to all of you..
The pictures are really very great...

[Ray Norton]

It appears that the Ospreys take off from a large deck by flying forward.

What a wonderful idea.

I recall the H46 ship departure procedure under these conditions as follows:

1. Lift into a hover over the deck in ground effect. Check guages and insure adequate power.

2. Slide sideways over the water. Make certain that the helicopter also has enough power to hover out of ground effect.

3. Proceed on course.

It was never clear to me what to do if the check in step 2 failed.

[mike sullivan]

Ray... You never slid sideways over the water untill you had sufficient out of ground effect power to stay above the deck. If you didn't you kicked out some of your load, With the ship steaming into the wind I don't ever recall having to do that. Now on a hot day in an LZ with 22 troops and full fuel load, well.... that's another story..... Your post brings back a lot of old memories...s/f

[Joe Reed]

In HMM-165 on the Valley Forge (2/68) we had a crew find out! As the HAC headed out past the bow of the ship he lost an engine. Full load of troops and full load of fuel! The Navy made him fly the entire "Delta" pattern to get back to the ship, when they approached below the flight deck until and last "burst" of power from the CH-46A got them aboard, albeit with some rotor damage to that and two other parked a/c since they were unable to "sideslip" aboard due to lack of Nr!! Puckered everyone's fanny, but all walked away. We changed some blades and rotor heads (3) and one engine

[Walt]

ON the Carb cruise before we deployed to Viet Nam . We had a pratice invasion while it was stll dark. The squids missed one chain on the left landing gear ,as the ac lifted off it hung for a second before the chain broke then all most went in sea side ways , scared the hell out of the crew and everone on the flight deck. That was as close as I ever saw of one going into the sea . Another time I saw the crew chief get left on the flightdeck as the pilot took off before he was backl aboard his ac, the long cord broke after allmost pulling his head off. SF

[Joe Reed]

Another time I saw the crew chief get left on the flightdeck as the pilot took off before he was backl aboard his ac, the long cord broke after allmost pulling his head off. SF
Walt is offline Report Post

Walt,
Darrell Tygart was leaning on the CC door when they lifted off of a Carrier during his second tour with HMM-165! He fell out on the flight deck from WAY Up there! Shattered his L/arm and wrist and had t be med-evaced for advanced surgery. You just can't trust those latches!

[Dale A Riley]

Just ask John "Ace" Hunt about those latches. I was just reading his story last week that Wally Beddoe did.

[Wild Snide]

Walt,
Darrell Tygart was leaning on the CC door when they lifted off of a Carrier during his second tour with HMM-165! He fell out on the flight deck from WAY Up there! Shattered his L/arm and wrist and had t be med-evaced for advanced surgery. You just can't trust those latches!

I'm guessing then, that you gents didn't use gunners belts back then that would have prevented him from falling out of the A/C?

[Mike Amtower]

"Wild",

From your avatar, I can see that you were associated with 53s.

In my time flying as a gunner in 53s in '67 & '68, I can't recall
anyone wearing a gunner's belt.

The only connection with the helo was the ICS cords.

Of course, the pilot & CP were strapped in. :D:D:D:D

[Joe Reed]

I'm guessing then, that you gents didn't use gunners belts back then that would have prevented him from falling out of the A/C?

That would be a negative....For a Crew Chief to be encumbered with a belt with all we did in a CH-46 it would have been quite an ordeal!! We did use them on the odd times we had a tail gunner!

[Jerome HALL]

That would be a negative....For a Crew Chief to be encumbered with a belt with all we did in a CH-46 it would have been quite an ordeal!! We did use them on the odd times we had a tail gunner!

:rolleyes:Belts? Now what are they !!! I don't believe I even worn them to keep my trousers up. In the 46 Joe you're right as a Crew chief most would want to keep on the move. I did however hear some stories about those that stay still ,me I didn't even want to sit . Sitting was the way you could get shot in the REAR. Didn't want that !

[timothy]

I can't remember if I wore a belt, that was a long time ago!

[Frank D. Bermudez]

I always remember wearing a gunners belt in the '34's. Many a time in my haste to get out of the A/C, I still had my belt on. I've seen the underside of many a '34.

[Sam]

Tim is right, we very rarely worn the gunner's belt. The only time that I used it was while I was working on the ramp. I pulled more than one team aboard through the ramp when we couldn't land. Other times, we were running up and down the cabin. I can understand being a crew chief on a CH-34, sitting by the door. One slip and it would be a loooong way down.

[John Ace Hunt]

Yes Gentlemen, the V-22 is a machine with Great potential. I have reseverations about it though. I believe there should have been designed into it a system that below10-13 thousand feet the windows could be removed, and 50 cals. be swung in place that when in a landing situation the roto-props would be in a 45 degree to a full Helicopter rotor landing set. The guns would be able to be used during landing from an altitude of several hundred feet, and while un-loading troops in Hot zones. When the roto-props were in a verticle posisition for forward flight, the guns would not be able to be fired. My Squadron still has close to 2 years of existance in the 46. I believe in that time period I feel the major problems will be found, and all those 46's in moth Balls will be quickly put back into operation while its decided wether 50 to 80 or so million bucks per Aircraft is worth it on the V-22. The 46 still would be 20-25 times less the price per unit to this day. Since we(USMC), are going back to the quick assault type warfare the 46 is going to be all thats needed. There are problems with the 22 that are not known yet, and I would say several maybe major problems, that we do not know about, are trying still to be corrected. The Belts are in most cases not needed for a 46 Crew Chief, because for a Crew Chief to be a good one, he must be on the move in the 46 at all times. In the ****-pit, back to the engines,(opening the engine access doors to look for any suden leaks), checking the rear transmission for leaks, and what the grinding is, or wether the carbon seal is leaking fluid, re-setting the generators, looking out of the AirCraft for any possible mid-air collisions all around the Bird, and of course when needed, being on the Crew Chiefs Gun. A Crew Chief that just sits in his seat is worthless, and not a Crew Chief. I shudder to think some Birds were lost in Vietnam just because of that simple thing. The Crew Chief did not know what was going on. I have seen several videos of 46's going into the water just before landing on ship. Did they(ECA's) sense a low fuel pressure and shut down to idle RPM? The T-58-8, &-10 has engine condition actuators(ECA's) on each engine, an electronic gass peddle. If the Crew Chief had the engine doors open, and one went to idle RPM, he could grab the lever, and advance it to full power in time to save the Bird, and everyone on board. Full power spitting and sputtering was better than idle RPM, and loosing the Bird and possibly the Crew, and the people on board. It was mid-July'69, and EP-16 was taking off from the Iwo-Jima. I had just started to go below deck, and the Bird lifted off the Deck, hovered for ground effect, and as it went out over the water, lost out of ground effect power, and it nose dived into the Sea. Everone was saved, but the left seat had a bad broken right foot I believe. It was never known what happened, it just lost out of ground effect power on take off. The Crew Chief was Cpl. Jones. A very good Crew Chief. He worked very hard to keep his Bird ready to Fly. Things happen just in seconds for most any Bird to get into a crash condition. If the Crew Chief is tied down, kiss it all good bye in most cases. Most of the 34 Men, and a bunch of 46 Men knew this. You could not be tied down, and have the time to fire at gooks, or run to stop a bad leak, or if the co Pilot was wasted, and the HAC was wounded, you would have to help the Pilot Fly the Bird, or all would be dead in a very short time. I wouldn't want to be flying as Gunner and my Crew Chief was tied down. Think I'd go to mess duty. All have good ones, Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Walt]

When I went to the 261 reunion the CO briefed us on what they did in Afgan with the Osprey. He said they perfomed very good. They mounted a 7.62 machine gun on the ramp. Early in the cruise they ran about 80% up but as time went by it was down to 40 to 50 %. The day of the reunion their was only one that was misson ready and 3 that was flyable. Most of all of it was for parts. Toward the end of the cruise they took some hits in the skin no one was wounded during the tour.
When I flew CC in a 46 I never wore a belt but I never leaned out the front hatch either I all ways stuck my head our the window where the gun was. Its a wonder that more people didn't fall out of 34's . SF

[John Ace Hunt]

Walt, I'm glad you posted about this. It just shows what I was saying about it when I posted on it earlier. They built the thing knowing there would be parts wearing out left and right. There was sand in 'Nam as well, but the 46 and others still flew didn't they? They are some bad design flaws that we are not being told about, I do believe. At 1st they had good percentages of up Birds, but as a short time went by, they started being grounded for lack of parts. It is at least a 50-60 plus million per Bird we are looking at. If they would take half the modifications off the 46, and keep them going, at least the troops could be inserted in the Combat zone, and not have to walk a long way the Fighting. To many IED's for that, plus the snipers. They plan to sell the 46's to other countrys when they all are replaced. Better believe that.!!!! Once they are gone, never to be back again. I doubt Boeing would build anymore 46's anyway. Not for 25 million a piece even. They run about 2 million still apiece, as they did when they were 1st made. In a lot of cases, older, IS better. I say they will start having major failures, like the 46 did after a bit. They blame it on the sand wearing the parts out, but it takes 2-3 times longer to work on the 22, than the 46 any day. To replace one little part, half the thing has to be dismantled. Thats why a number of Crew Chiefs were given very BIG bonuses to go over to the 22. I believe the 46 now has enlarged fuel tanks, for 5000 pounds of fuel, where in 'Nam we had only 2500 pounds. They still have a crew of 4, and can only haul 9-10 packs now because of it. In my souped up Alfa's, I've haulled 20 & 21 Packs before. That is a FACT. The little 7.62 gun on the ramp of the 22 does a whole bunch of good , doesn't it? They shoot at you from the front coming in for a drop off, then from the sides. But the little gun, is on the BACK ramp. It took a High Dollar engeneer to come up with that. Bet he never was in the Military, or Flew on a Combat mission. He was most likely a hippie protesting us in 'Nam for being there, now he is designing a machine that he knows is sub standard, for us to go die in. They haven't started falling out of the air yet, but they will, Every 50 to 70 million dollar one they have made. It angers me for them to get rid of one of the few Most succesful Birds in Marine Air History. Oh, they just to old. I would believe each engineer that designed the 22 is a multi- millionaire. The records should be checked some way. We will never know though. Have good ones all. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

On my last post here I failed to ask who woud like to be on the re-tests of flying on one engine, or without either left or right nacel? I feel the engineers should be in the 1st troop seats. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[timothy]

That thing won't fly with one nacelle any more than the 46 would fly missing the fore or aft rotor or losing one blade or part of one blade. Single engine operation is a different thing, I don't know the spec on OEO ops on the VM-22. I know it won't auto-rotate which isn't a good thing, run on landings I don't think would work either. The prop rotors would strike the ground and tear the machine apart unless there is a break away part of the prop rotor which I doubt. There are a lot of unknowns about that machine, time will tell!

[John Ace Hunt]

Tim, I'll re- phrase it, I'd like to see the test with both nacels, and one of the engines shut down completely. Its susposed to fly with the cross shaft system from one engine to the other, but I certainly DOUBT it will. May not even get off the ground. That is with one in the Squadrons in afghan right now, not one made to do it off the line. I say one engine will not do it. Think they know beter than to believe it would. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

I 'd sure like to find out what ever happened to Ssgt or maybe Gysgt Jerry Greer.he was at atsugi went on the evac in 75 then ran 163s flight line in 77-78 @ LTA( MCAS (H) Tustin,Ca. went to work for Boeing Vertol as V-22 rep.

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch there should be a way to find him by checking with boeing. A mesage could be left him, and he get back to you. They may say,'we are not a message board,' something like that. Hope not. Just ask for a tech rep on the 22, and see if he knows him. Hope someone knows him, and will share his address with you. See if he will call you back. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Morning Ace , I tried that a couple of years ago after I saw him on the history channel and the military channel shows about the V-22 .No joy ! I even left messages on his E mail .I know he was in Iraq and Afganistan doing the tech rep thing !

[John Ace Hunt]

Hate that Lurch. Just have to hope someone reads where you are looking for him, and hope that he will get the message, and call you, or leave a message for you. I had a Marine Brother looking for me for 40 years, and heard my chatter there. He said he was going to give up, but didn't. Glad he didn't for sure. Hope the best for you in finding him. Call, or write the tv channel, they will get a message to him. Tell them, we will boycott the channel if they don't. Semper Fi, and READY-APP..

[Frank D. Bermudez]

Jerry is on Facebook. His e-mail address is grier.jerry@yahoo.com

[Slick]

Morning Ace , I tried that a couple of years ago after I saw him on the history channel and the military channel shows about the V-22 .No joy ! I even left messages on his E mail .I know he was in Iraq and Afganistan doing the tech rep thing !


Lurch,
think I found contact info for Grier. Sent to you by seperate e-mail

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch hope that is still a good contact. I like to keep mine, but there are times when the address has to be changed. Please try soon. Thats Great, Thank you Slick. Semper Fi. and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Jerry and I have been in contact. I'm just glad he remembered me.Thank very much Slick ! Semper Fi to the POPASMOKE TEAM ! :):):)

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, glad you were able to visit with the Gy. Greer. I have several I'm still looking for, but they are Army from when I was MP in Chu-Lai. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

:DTurns out he made Master Gunns the hard way ! he worked for it ! he had the career I wanted !God bless him ! sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

I heard that Lurch. I had the plans to get out either an E-7 or 8, But had to retire as a Cpl. That beats a dead Cpl. I should have fought it, but didn't know I could. Thats the way the ole ball rolls. Glad he got out a good rank, and is doing well. Have a good one. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Slick]

Jerry and I have been in contact. I'm just glad he remembered me.Thank very much Slick ! Semper Fi to the POPASMOKE TEAM ! :):):)

Was easy- Turned the two bubbas at New River who work for me on a "locate and ID" mission. They did all the work

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, again, glad you were able to visit with him, and you now have his contact info. I thank all for the help. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Jerome HALL]

:DTurns out he made Master Gunns the hard way ! he worked for it ! he had the career I wanted !God bless him ! sf kc

Lurch I too am glad you was able to find each other after so long of a wondering. I know each time I dod get back with another one of the Guys its been with tears and Hugs, I mean what a REUNION ! Words just does not tell the feelings . Hope each of us can continue finding some more of them before its to late. That's a sorry fact.

[John Ace Hunt]

I do not like the va telling me/us, that we will all be dead by 2015. There is susposed to be 399 of us dying every day, and its not going to be long before they say we will all be gone. The money they spend researching that, it could help many Vets. I have come to the conclusion that half the people working for them now was the ones we were being spit on by. Had I come home through an Airport, and been spit on and called everything, I was going to go to jail. Thats after busting some heads so they would not be able to do it after that. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both ! :)

[timothy]

Don't forget the 46 had it's growing problems with the aft pylon failures in the air and on the ground. Lost a lot of good friends because of a manufacturing defect! Love the phrog but give the 22 a chance.

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, my down on the 22 is because they can not be kept in an up status, without major maintenance. Its hard to get the critical parts even now. It'll be bad if they need them up, and can not get the parts. I agree with you. I'd say half needs to be 22, and half the 46-upgraded. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Tim, I believe 20 plus years is enough time to be given. The 46 problem was taken care of in less time, thats for sure. The 46 will end up being sold, then when the 22 is grounded for certain, just what are they going to do then? Yes, there were good friends lost on the 46, but I bet its a draw on the casualities so far, and how many friends were lost in the 22 crashes? They don't matter? They were someones friends too. Its 2-3 million- 46, verses 75 to 80 plus million per unit-22. I could half way care less anymore, as I don't have to fly on it, or fight in it. It'll never do what the 46 still can, That I know. It may swoop over the trees , but a button hook, with no guns that can be used for very long without making the user sick, it can't go into combat zones. The 46 still can, and will for awhile longer. I'm tired of paying taxes for something that will in a year or so have to be scraped. But what do I know? Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Wild Snide]

Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both ! :)

Have to get the Japanese to build them then. Boeing sold the license to build 46's to them years ago. --In 1965, Boeing Vertol sold the manufacturing rights of the 107 to Kawasaki Heavy Industries. Under this arrangement, all Model 107 civilian and military aircraft built in Japan are known as KV 107--

But in a related development-On 15 December 2006, Columbia Helicopters, Inc acquired the type certificate for the Boeing Vertol 107-II, and is in the process of acquiring a Production Certificate from the FAA. Plans for actual production of the aircraft have not been announced.

[John Ace Hunt]

Wild, that is very good to know. Wonder why its taken over 4 years plus now, for the Faa to certify it? Sounds like money is involved to me. When the 22 is grounded, the 107II will have to be put into production, When they sell all the 46's. The program Helli loggers, has a souped up 47, and a 46. They call the 46 a vertol though. Looks like a reg. A modle to me. They say it costs the company 15 thousand Dollars per Hour to fly. It has lifted close to 4.2-3 tons of tree on the program. Its most likely one made from Japan, and flown in canada. Thank you for the info. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Ray Norton]

This is a photo of a publicity stunt to promote New York Airways introduction of the new Vertol helicopter that was to be used in and around Manhattan. They planned to external the Ford Mustang all over the Island of Manhattan to get attention!

When the photo was taken, Vertol had not yet been acquired by Boeing.

The aircraft is still active and registered as N6676D. It is currently owned by Columbia Helicopters Inc. of Portland, Oregon. The serial number is six. The date of manufacure is unknown.

[John Ace Hunt]

Thats great Ray. That could be the one in Eastwoods movie. Shortly after the tails started falling off in 'Nam, they dis-continued the Air Service in New York. Hate they didn't start back up after the problem was found and corrected. I believe that was the reason. Glad it is still flying today. I believe besides the Cobra, the 46 is the better looking Bird in the Marine Corps. It could do more than most any other Bird. That is except hauling over 25 Packs full combat gear. Thats where the 53 Heavy comes in. The 46, in my and others opinion, looks better than the 53. I believe beauty is in the eye of the be-holder.lol. Thanks again Ray. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Dale A Riley]

Would you believe this guy was enjoying R & R in Taipei and don't ask me how but I (we) ended up in a movie house watching Clint Eastwood "Coogin's Bluff" when POW - here's a 46 flying over the NY skyline - I needed another drink:cool:

[lurch]

I remember that scene Dale ! 46 s have been in a lot of movies and sometime it does trigger a flash back ! hell all the time actually ! LOL .I know about the 107 II thats why I think we should build em ! with some IMPROVEMENTS ! carbon fiber tech and alloy tech have been vastly improved since the fifties and sixties . stronger engines more armament and new avionics,new blades.etc... I dont care if they cost ten million a copy or even 15 mil.the 46 could and still can fill a multi mission slot that no other aircraft in Naval aviation can ! I still think It's the best Helicopter the CORPS has ! that being said I think the V-22 s could vastly increase the projection of power and logistical support of marines on the ground.with a lot of improvements of its' own ! ACE you know plenty brother as do all my brothers here on PAS ! :)

[timothy]

I have a couple of good friends that used to fly the 107's for New York Airways when they used to land on the Pan Am Building in NYC.

[Walt]

I remember when I was in HMX and we went to Ny to pratice landing on roof tops .mostly we landed where the 107 did it was kicks flying around all those tall buildings. If I remember right they went out of buisnees because they where losing money.
On the gunners belt I don't think any one normal wore one in 262. In 34's we wore them for externals and SAR pratice or for a real SAR but not for troop lifts or just boreing holers in the sky. SF

[lurch]

I think its around 34 or so in the V-22 :( sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Dale, I had to do a double take as well. Thats one of the better scenes of the movie. Glad that Bird is still Flying. Hope you and all have a Great Thanksgiving. S/F, Brothers.

[John Ace Hunt]

I do so agree Lurch. That makes the most sense I've heard in a long while. I've been harping on it as well, but you say it much better. The 22 is good to get reinforcements to places for the 46 to take them on in. Guns Blazing. If they would get a fleet of the newer 46's, I'd slack back on the 22 a whole bunch. They would Both have an important roll to play in our Corps. I enjoy the Helli Loggers. That brings back lots of memories. The last program, the 46 carried over 4.3 tons, but it was slick. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Thats Great Tim. Bet they loved it, almost as much as we did flying on them. Just curious, what was the reason They stoped the service with the 46? I've always thought it was the Aft Plylon problem, but never for sure found out. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Walt, that is Super. I can imagine the fun you Men had. I agree, a good Crew Chief had to be on the move way to much to use the Belt in a 46. I can see using it on the 34, as the Crew Chief is so close to the hatch all the time. Just hate there was not enough bussiness to make a profit for them. The program Helli-Loggers, they always say its 15 thousand Dollars an hour to operate it. That is an enormus amount of money. To think we flew turning 10 to 12 hours a day, that would be close to 200 thousand Dollars a day, per Bird. Now I see the profit margine loss. Semper Fi.

[John Ace Hunt]

Thank you Lurch. I had thought it was close to that. The 22 is a good Bird, its just it would have a good number of problems going into zones we 46's did, and still do. The gun scopes on the 22 cause the gunner to get sick at the stomach a lot. Hate that. I do hope it is improved to a 50 cal.-360 bottom fire,then it would have a shoot out ability, and be there with the 46. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[rigger]

Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both ! :) Not beating on Lurch. Just got on site. Reading. 20 yrs for V22 NOT. When I was in 8th grade. The Vtol was on Popular Science Mag. Watched this with hopeful ambition. This was L.B.J yrs. mid 60's. I was in HMLA-267 77-81. Buddy, Sean P. Joyce and his Bro-in law Gunny Leader first joined to do PAX river and exceptance flights at Bell. Lost them both at a 92 Potohmac River crash in 92. Too many moving parts. It's flight path kill zone is way too large, no recovery. Also with the acutual flights hrs spread over the years, it is a lot of loss. What, more than 18 on one crash? By the way, just asking, does it aways crash on it's top? Keep the 46/107. The 53 is Marine.

[timothy]

Ace I seem to remember one rolling over on the roof top, they probably thought it was unsafe. But it also had to be quite costly. There are still helicopters landing on roof tops in NYC but much smaller ones.

[John Ace Hunt]

Morning Tim. I hate to hear that. Glad they are still smaller ones using them. The winds I'm sure are bad most of the time. I believe Walt was saying the Company had trouble with the profits, and that was a reason as well. I watch the program on encore-Dish, the Helli-Loggers, and they are always saying the 107 vertol(46), they are using costs 15 thousand Bucks an hour to operate, and it would be really rough to make it profitable. The Bird thats in the picture is still in service and Flying good. Thats incredible. We Flew close to 10-12 hours a day, or turning, and I've said earlier, thats close, or over 200,000 Dollars a Day. We set the Gov. back a lot of money if thats the case. Parts, and Maintenance included in it too. It would be good if another Defense Secretary decided to approve the program Lurch was mentioning, a newer version of the 46 with composite material, and bigger engines and blades, maybe a longer body as well. The 22 wouldn't be so bad if it could auto-rotate, and parts were ready avaliable. Not sure if thats the problem with up time or not. I think I heard that was one of them. Hope you do have a very Good day, with Family and all. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

HEY Rigger , let's face it all the air craft have problems the 46, the 53 !!! & now the V-22. i'm not gonna bad mouth any more till I have more facts .there's Marines flying in them and they know more about it than we do ! I heard Alotta Crap about 46 s & I figure it ain't doing the V-22 crews any good to be put though the same $#!T nuff said ? semper fi ! kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, I too have been negative about the 22. The 46 crews were not given big bonuses to change over like the 22 Crews were. Some got well over 80-90 thousand to switch over. I still believe boeing knew well in advance the 22 would have problems now, and for at least 20 years plus. The blood is on their hands for the Billions of dollars they made, and are making off the 22. I am not talking about the Crew, just the Bird. I will still say what I have to on the 22, and just hope the Crews enlistment time, and bonus times will run out, and they can get out alive before it starts having any more critical parts failures. I still have to say,'When it can auto-rotate, I'll leave it alone', to a degree. Its like going into a Hot Zone with your pants down. Wouldn't want to do it without a good gun system. Its been mentioned I believe about why they crash on their tops. When you have a difference in RPM on either Rotor-Prop and engine, it will flip to the weak side. Just plop on its top. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Ace your right about the flip problem alot of multi eng/prop air craft have that curse ! look at the P 38 (i think) from WWII .as for bad talking the V-22 everybody can of course say what they please we all have that right. I'm just saying I'm not gonna do it cause I think it is bad for morale of the crews !I saw how it affected some people in the 46 community to here the 46 called "crowd killers,flying coffins,shake &bake,widow makers,tail droppers,blade breakers,twist turn crash &burn,etc . I used to just laugh cause at least I was flying and they never called US $#!tters LOL :D sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

I heard that Lurch. I also seem to understand what your saying about the 22. BUT, its the only way to get the problems found and Fixed. They called me and my 46 all the names as well, but when their cheeks were squeezed tight, and/or bleeding bad, needed to get out of the zone, or needed to get in to save our Brothers on the ground, they certainly didn't mind riding on the famous Bird.(crowd killers, flying coffins, shake and Bakes, widow makers, ETC). The 22 has hidden problems, and it has NO guns, plus so many other don'ts, or can'ts. It was a money maker for boeing, and thats a fact. Most all asked for it, and or were paid to fly on it. I'd rather keep myself in the engine shop, until it has a 50 cal., total 360 downward fire ability, and I have not seen one yet fly on one engine. It may have, but let them show it. Thats almost as much as a top line Fighter Aircraft, BIG BUCKS per unit, and it looks like now they are trying to split the mission of it to other Birds, that can do auto rotations, Poss. Buttonhooks, and 20-25 second inserts and extractions. The 46 did, IS, and will keep on doing it until they are just pulled off the Flight line. It certainly could do all those things and more. I can not believe they hate it so much. The B-52 is over 50 plus years old, but they are praiseing it, not the 46 though. Its too old. A certain congressman(house man I think), named(well he wears glasses, was re-elected, and wants to tax the rich and small bussiness, do as much as he can to take money out of our pockets instead of helping us) in my opinion is too old too, but he is still trying to take money out of my pocket and yours as well. This new christmas tree bomber from somali or wherever, acted alone, SURE like I can run 7500 miles an hour. When they are caught with their cut off arm in the cookie jar, march them out, and do a Firing Squad. BUT NO, they will let him go, he is just mis-guided. You bet though, he acted alone, Yea, like a missle. There are women now as Crew Chiefs on the 22. I know a woman would NOT hold up doing the missions I, and we had in Vietnam on the 46. Not a chance. Sexist, NO. Just a realists. Lives can not be played with. I remember of only getting less than 23-24 hours a week sleep on the 46, 2-3 hours at a time. The rest of the time we were Flying 10-12 hours a day, and working on it until 01:30 plus am, and getting up at 04:00 that morning, and doing it all over again, 7 days a week. I doubt a woman can do that. I'll get blasted for that, as sure as I'm sitting here. Makes about as much sense as having a fairy in your fox-hole looking at YOU, instead of the enemy shooting at you. Make a unit made up entirely of the homosexuals, and let them go man. Hands in each others pockets,like the ARVINS did. I witnessed it on a daily basis longer than I cared to remember, but what could you Do? I could wear Bibles out swearing on them, but they will do what they are going to do.Period. I'd still like to see South Korea be made into an Island, totally surounded by 1000 miles of water in all directions. May be just whats going to happen. The games will continue, and we'll see. My foot is in the mouth bout as far as it can go now, so had best get. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

I hear what you're sayin' there Ace :) sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, can't believe the boxer, or the bull dog looking one hasn't put me out to pasture yet for talking bout the women. I don't like it they making them do jobs they are not ready for yet, just to fill a quota. Mens lives are at stake. They are cutting down the picture of a Combat man with Gods hand on his shoulder now. Oh they stepped over the line. I'm just glad God had his hand on me and many of my Brothers. BUT the muss-slums that want to build the mosque at zero, now wants government money to build it. They won't cut that down. I smell the fish, and I'm getting stopped up a bit. muss-slums,(I'm a very bad speller), can do anything they want, but we can't even Pray in school now. We have to let them pray 5 times a day. I still smell the fish. Has oil in it, but I smell the fish. Stitches is so 2 faced, as the democrats in congress are, but doesn't matter. Still say Bush was REPUBLICAN, AND HE HAD TO FACE A DEMOCRAT CONGRESS, BUT ITS ALL HIS FAULT, YEA MEN, ITS ALL BUSHES FAULT. Professor is still harping on it, and can not get out of campaign mode. We can live on hope and changee. Right. Sure. He can fill up Air Force one on hope and change, and let him fly with that. I believe they should put a hit on the kid that is leaking secrets on wikileaks, but it will nev-ar happen # 1 GI's. Looks like pakistan is reaping what they have been sewing. (Big Plane crash. Hate the innocent people died in it).I would like a athesists come to my house, and try to convince me there is no God. I warn them, I don't play fair on my Private property. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

For info, go to ' 24th MEU returns to States. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[hma1369]

Lurch, can't believe the boxer, or the bull dog looking one hasn't put me out to pasture yet for talking bout the women. I don't like it they making them do jobs they are not ready for yet, just to fill a quota. Mens lives are at stake.
HMH-464 got a female CO in September.
http://www.marines.mil/unit/2ndmaw/mag29/hmh464/Pages/CO.aspx

[John Ace Hunt]

Looks like I'll bite my tounge instead of being banned. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Well ya sure can't call her " THE OLE MAN " but I can hear all the new ones Owwwcchh !!! Bit mine too ! :D sf kc

[Walt]

Todays Miltiary.com web site is an aricle on the accident's board finding of the Air force V22. They came to the conclusion it was pilot error. SF

[Jim Wilkening]

HMH-464 got a female CO in September.
http://www.marines.mil/unit/2ndmaw/mag29/hmh464/Pages/CO.aspx

She has 5 Air Medals and a Combat Action Ribbon, and she wears the Eagle Globe and Anchor. I'm wishing her well and a big "Semper Fi!"

[lurch]

any time any one assumes command of a unit they need all the luck & prayers they can get ! sf kc :)

[John Ace Hunt]

None of those qualify anyone to be CO of a Helicopter Squadron. Its just politics as usual. Glad I don't have to be in it. Which squadron will have the first homo Co, a woman at that?

[John Ace Hunt]

Walt, I've posted the report 2 days ago. I'll post again in a bit. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

I agree Lurch, but it'll be a weird Squadron if you ask me. I wish her all the luck she can find, as she will need it. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

I met some people in the Corps I didn't think should be allowed to lead a pig to slop, ( including myself ) and you're right that medals aren't enough !, but She is a Marine and has lots of Marines in the unit She commands for her and their sake I'm Praying for her success! Politics be damned they ALL need All the help they can get ! SEMPER FI ! kc :)

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, Gentlemen, i just do not believe they could do half the missions we did in 'Nam. Thats right, she will need all the help and luck, and intelligence she can fine, but don't believe it'll be enough. Hope so, BUT....!Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

It'll make the Twilight zone look like Ozzie and Harriet ! :D

[GARY ALLS]

John Ace Hunt
NOTAM Honcho



Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Antlers, Ok. 74523
Posts: 1,246

5 air medals, CAR, and EGA
None of those qualify anyone to be CO of a Helicopter Squadron. Its just politics as usual. Glad I don't have to be in it. Which squadron will have the first homo Co, a woman at that?
__________________
ACE

Ace,

I have a nephew who is gay and I work in an environment where there are gays also working.

I don't necessary approve of their choice of sexuality, but as in Vietnam, when it came to leaving in the middle of the night to pick up a Med-e-vac or having some grunt risking his life to protect myself and crew if we were shot down in a hot zone, I could not care one iota what the hell their color was, what they thought about their sexual orientation or how they looked.

As long as they did their job and I did mine, that what counts!! There's too much crap going on in the world today to sweat the small stuff. It is a little disturbing that there are so many narrow minded people.

S/F Gary Alls
HMM-263 '66-'67

[John Ace Hunt]

I bet a lot of the Crewmen will be wishing they were in the twilight zone soon. How long will it be before there has to be a homo CO of a V-22 Squadron? Just real political correct,huh. Not with me or my Son, or any of my Family. Period. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

I dink ah yesst bit ma tongue auff !!!:D

[John Ace Hunt]

Hate that Lurch. I just remember what queers did to Brother Marines in Memphis going to school in '66, and I hope every one of them chocks on a salami. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Well. Glad I'm narrow minded. You believe in the Bible? Bet there were not very many homo's in Vietnam for that matter. If so not many came home. If one of my kids had ever became homo, I would have taken them out in the woods, and knocked their heads against a tree stump. Put them out of their missery right then and there. The Marines that were messed up by them in Memphis in '66 I bet never had sex again. We hunted them down, or tried to, but they figured us out, and stayed away from us. Still love them. You will now have all the chance in the world to love them. A Man that can not raise nothing but homos needs to be fixed, so he can not ruin the world anymore. Believe Drs have said its a reflection of the parents. Put that in your smoke and pipe it. I just hate that so many will be put out on disability because when they get knocked in the head, they will be drawing a big Service Connected check, and still popping slami's. They will over turn the DADT sooner than you will believe, just for that reason. How did you get your Service Connection?, well, I tried to swallow the whole thang......Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

There is more posted at V-22 OSPERY. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Jim Wilkening]

None of those qualify anyone to be CO of a Helicopter Squadron. Its just politics as usual.

Ace,

I wasn't implying it qualified her. I'm just saying as a sister Marine I wish her the best. It may be politics but, she could actually be a fine Marine who earned it. I pray for all of our Marines, regardless of gender, including both my sons. Semper Fi, Jim

[John Ace Hunt]

Jim, I wish her well as you do. I know there are a Great number of Lt.Cols., and Full Birds that are as, or more qualified as she is. I'm sure she can fly one, but soon there will have to be a woman CO on ships, Submarines, Test Pilots, Wings, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force one Pilots, most likely B-52 Pilots already, and other positions just because of being a woman. TIME IN GRADE is the Factor, not gender. If they have the time in grade over a man, thats Great. Don't believe thats the case. Its called hesitation, very big chance of it happening, then all are dead. I say to heck with it, as I don't care anymore. I don't have to fly with them. Strap a monkey in the seat, it'll learn. Seems to be one in the cic's chair. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[popasmoke]

Ace,
Mark Twain once said, "There is nothing more ignorant as an educated man off his specialty." Now really, what do you really know about the V-22?
Give me a break.

[John Ace Hunt]

Well, this ignorant person, knows its an over priced, over promoted, 30 years in the making, defensless, boon-doggle piece of aluminum, and composite. This last crash, if it had been a 46 with engine loss, the Pilot could have pulled up on the collective, and jumped the ditch, and he would not have even had to do a roll on landing in the 1st place. The Crew Chief could have told the Pilot to do an orbit, and landed elsewhere. For the price of 1- 22 there could be at least 40- 46's replace it. The 46 is maybe 2.5 million, and the 22 is well over 88-89 million PER unit. I may safely say there has been less men Killed in 46's since 2000, than the 22, by about 11 Men. I know just about as much as most people know about it. It CAN-NOT auto-rotate, Hover on the ramp, float as long as a 46, or even come close to doing a Button-Hook. It certainly can not get in and out of a zone in less than 30 seconds, the 46 can. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Joe Reed]

This last crash, if it had been a 46 with engine loss, the Pilot could have pulled up on the collective, and jumped the ditch, and he would not have even had to do a roll on landing in the 1st place. The Crew Chief could have told the Pilot to do an orbit, and landed elsewhere.

Ace,
Clearly you never flew CH-46A models! If you lost and engine with a load of troops and fuel, and we did, you were going to land, post haste! there was no flying about finding a place for a nice smooth hover landing! It WAS going to be a roll on, even if you couldn't "roll" out!! To repeat my earlier post, the early '46 crews had the SAME dilema as the V-22 guys did a few years ago, The UH-34 guys talked about us exactly the way you are talking about V-22 folks! AND...they were full of crap, too! You flew the "D's" and know they were/are great birds!

[Dale A Riley]

Joe, I remember that debate and all the auto-rotation practice on the 46A cause like you said - down is where you went. Being sent first to HMX-1 I heard from quite a few old salts to try and get assigned to the huey or the 53 for schooling and training BUT "needs of the service" prevailed.

[lurch]

I went 46s cause I was told I would get more flight time ! as far as the V-22 /CH -46 debate they are totally different air craft with both having stregths and weakness .I think the V-22 can not replace the 46 in toto nor can the 46 match range or flight specs as published for the V-22. I think composite squadrons are still the best answer with maybe four or six V-22 per MEU . it's all about capability and coordanation of assets. sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Dale Glad for you. I'm glad I was sent to an F-8 Fighter Squadron for 2 years before I went Choppers. Especially glad I went the 46. I do have a good understanding of Fixed Wing, and DO feel I have a good knowledge of the Rotors. I've been following the 22 since it was started, and will continue to feel the way I do because of that knowledge. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[mecollins]

Ace,
Clearly you never flew CH-46A models! If you lost and engine with a load of troops and fuel, and we did, you were going to land, post haste! there was no flying about finding a place for a nice smooth hover landing! It WAS going to be a roll on, even if you couldn't "roll" out!! To repeat my earlier post, the early '46 crews had the SAME dilema as the V-22 guys did a few years ago, The UH-34 guys talked about us exactly the way you are talking about V-22 folks! AND...they were full of crap, too! You flew the "D's" and know they were/are great birds!
Joe,you & I go back a ways. Coming out of NAS,ADJ & BASHEL school.,I was cut orders for LTA,Santa Ana.,HMM 164. We were the 1st unit on the West Coast to receive 46's. At the time,they had 6 birds.,2 on the flight line in up status.,4 in the hangar.,1 of those cannibalized to the point of being a skeleton.
I really,REALLY,wanted to get up there & bore holes in the sky. The sight of those 4 a/c sitting in the barn & the inter-meshing rotor blades,gave me pause for thought,though.
All the 'ghost stories' passed on by the 'salts' that had served with units that had experience with the old HRP-1(?) 'Flying Banana'.,or 'Widow-maker',as they called it.,only served to exacerbate the situation. It's a wonderment that they were able to convince ANY of us young bucks to become junior airmen. (The attraction of a few extra bucks on payday was enough to overcome our fear & apprehension.)
Those 1st "A" models were a logistical & maintenance NIGHTMARE !!! They drove the mechs,avionics,& the bubble-chasers crazy.,supply as well. Nothing much,in the way of 'hands on' experience with this 'new-kid-on-the-block'...,too little a/c history to permit supply to keep common failure items in stock.,of which,there were MANY. That was early '65.
The break-in period saw significant improvement by '66.,especially in logistics. However,the droop-snoot blades were added to the "A" models,followed by the dash 10 engines. No mods incorporated to the air frame.
Enter the 'break-apart' phase.,when we became known as the "Great Green Bird With The Falling Tail". Evolution developed the "D" model & failure at the '410 station'.,ceased to be less of an issue. This mod came at a great loss of life. People had to learn that you cannot put 10 lbs. of s**t in a 5 lb. bag.
At this juncture.,there is not enough money to get me into a V-22 for a simple FAM hop...,WOULDN'T get into one of the old A's either.,as I remember them..,but then,again,I'm gettin' old & shakey. LOL
As much as we resent the '46 being put out to pasture.,time moves on.,so does technology. GET OVER IT !!!
By,the by...,for all you neophytes,unfamiliar with "A" models in a combat theater..,there was no such thing as the practiced RAL or CAL
procedure.,as enjoyed.,stateside.
Autorotation.,in country.,meant that you were the 1st to arrive at the scene of the crash.,if ya had a full load on an "A" model.,roll-on-landing thru the bush...,right,Joe ??? LOL
Craze

[lurch]

hey CRAZE they had a film in bashel school that was made to show the flexing of a helos airframe and blades ,any one see it ? I remember alotta guys didn't wanna play after they saw it,and didn't ! but for me it was the only sure way I could be aircrew !Craze you brought a smile to my face :)Bottom line is "THEY'RE" gonna do what "THEY'RE" gonna do !, and ain't nothing "WE" say on "HERE" gonna change a damned thing !And "WE" should know that by now ! :D sf kc

[Walt]

HMM 262 flew over 2200 hundred hours in Feb of 67 with A models and some of the crew chiefs where right out of a school. They where bad but not that bad. When the Marines got the 46 it was the same bird that NY Airways flew. They never took into consieration the hard landings and other abuses we put on them.After 262 did the mod program they where better. The Marines lost most of the A models in 1968 in the Hillfights. Soon everone had D's and 69 starting getting F models because the engines where reeady to made E models.
Now the V22 has had many more problems then the 46 did but the people flying them now swear by them. I wouldn't be afried to ride in one I think it would get be back home.I went to a 261 reunion at New River after 261 came back from Afgan flying V22's they had a lot of good things to say about them and the worse thing they said about them was the parts problem.
SF

[John Ace Hunt]

Thats all well and good. I know for a fact every time our Squadron flew by Marble, Phu-bai, Quang-Tri, even down at Chu-Lai, we were ordered to do a roll on Auto-rotation, wether we wanted to or not. It would scare the crap out of the packs we had on, but didn't do them any good. Got to where I enjoyed doing them. Hope it will still be the end of '12 before my Squadron goes to the junk wagon. Maybe they will change the scheduled CO, from a Male to a Female, by then, a happy one at that. Doubt it though. I had an Alpha for each Bird I had. They were the modified Sigma Tail, as I was told that was the name of them, and they flew just fine for me. They would haul 20-21 packs without a problem at all, full load of Fuel too. I doubt as of now there are very many Marine Pilots that can do an auto-rotation, as I understand they were stopped as they didn't have enough replacements still in inventory to do them, due to lack of ability to do them without crashing, or causing hard landings, breaking the tails off again. I know there is not a Pilot what so ever that can do a button hook, on active Duty. I'd fly with any of my Past Pilots that cared to fly them today, any day of the week. Don't believe I'd want to fly with to many of the nuggets though. I intend to keep saying what I think of the 22, and will keep hoping they will be smart enough to keep at least a few 46 Squadrons going. That remains to be seen though. I bet if there are any more engine failures on the big bird, they will re-evaluate the transisition until the problems can be solved. This last April the Air Force had the crash due to the engine failures, and it may not be long before the Marine 22's start doing the same thing. Just have to see won't we?This machine says its 82 outside, but in reality, its only 63 here. The Calif. rain will be in Ok. by this Fri. some time, so be ready for it in Florida a few days later. Maybe even Christmas day. Have good ones, and Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

No Lurch, didn't get to see it even after I started Flying. It would have been nice to see it though. I noticed as the time wore on in Country, the ones that loved Flying kept on Flying, and the ones that didn't care to take the chances, didn't. That is just the way it was. One time after loosing one, I was able to get another the same day. It would usually take a few days though. The rain should be getting to you by now, and hope you don't get a land slide on your mountain from it. Stay warm, and Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Walt thats Very Good. I know even with the tail mod., when I and my Gunner changed the engine at H&MS at Marble on Aug.26th,'69, I had a dash 10 engine almost hoisted into the #2 engine compartment, and the shop Gunny came running out to the Bird, made me stop, put it back on the stand, and push it back to the shop by myself. I was mad as ever, and told him the D*** tail has been modified to take a 10 engine, but he still would not let me put it in. I was going to put another 10 in the #1 next, and have a D wether they liked it or not. It did have a D tail on it, and not an Alpha tail. Whatever they called the thing. Like I said I was told the tail mod was called a Sigma, but that doesn't mean it was. The only engine I was allowed to get was another dash 8. A few Squadron members started helping us put it in, but I sent them back to the club after awhile, which left me and my Gunner to finish it. Again, glad it did warm up for you, and have a feeling you'll be getting soaked in a few days. Maybe even snow by Christmas. Stay warm. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

The Air Force has lost the black box. They said they didn't know it had one, and when they went back to get it, it was gone. That is the best cover up of engine failures I know of. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[timothy]

Lurch I've seen a video, I think from a Columbia logging machine (V107) with the camera outside shooting at the airframe twisting. It's awesome how much they twist, but I think you'd see flexing of any aircraft if you mounted outside cameras.

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, Tim, each week there is a program on Dish, channel- Encore, named Helli-Loggers. I've missed it several weeks, but believe its on Tue, or Wed., 7, & 8 pm. They have a 47 with modified fuel tanks, and a 107 they call the vertol, and its Air logging in Canada/British Columbia. The only thing is they repeat it so often. There is a Lady flying the 107, does a good job, like the men that Fly the chinook. Believe they call the 47 the chinook. Other than Star Trek, I can only watch re-runs so many times. There are a few programs of it I don't mind watching, when the 107 is working Flying the logs out, but as said, the program is repeated a lot. They have haulled at least 4.3-4 ton on the 107 before. They have very good video out the windows, and all around good shots from the various angles. With a scale on the hook-up they can know how much they carry each load. They always carry on how much it costs the company to Fly the 107, and its 15 thousand Dollars an hour for the slick. I've said before if its that much, we set the Gov. back close to several hundred thousand Dollars per Day flying the 46, 10-11 hours a day. Thats with the Crew, guns and ammo. Hope its still on, and you can catch it. Hope its not in between making programs of it. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

they all flex and twist ,flap and flutter :eek: lol

[lurch]

what about the supposed design flaw of low press air being feed into the rotor of the V-22 ? faster you try to go into a zone the worse it gets !just asking ? any one know ? :confused: as usual. sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, I've seen slow motion of the ak-47 firing auto. You can see the barrel flex pretty good. Thats why its not very accurate, in my opinion. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch I believe its something they can't do anything about. I followed the 22 pretty well, and was pulling for it, but lately I don't care about it one way or the other anymore. Semper Fi, and READY-APP..

[lurch]

I guess the AK was good enuf though huh Ace ?glad it wasn't/isn't better !and I'm still pulling for the V-22 usedin the proper mission rolewith the CH-46X! but I know it's just a dream ! I still don't care to go up in the wild blue any more ! sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

I do agree Lurch. I'm glad it has that problem of jumping around, on auto fire. I realize why Dale felt it wasn't effective. I agree with him now, because of that. I too am still pulling for the 22, don't like it, but it has a place in the Mission of the Marine Corps, BUT it can not replace the Helicopter, wether its the 46, or some other Bird. Hope it turns out to be a very good system. It had better be, as much as has been spent on it. Hate all that water is coming your way. It'll be a good deal more snow for you being at the altitude you are. It'll be very much more colder as well. Hate that. I'm not against women being CO's either, its just I hate to see one promoted ahead of more deserving men that has earned the right to Command. But the Services has changed a lot over the last 40 plus years, and people like me hasn't. I believe I know a lot about Fixed Wing, and Rotor Aircraft, as well. It all doesn't matter though. It would be nice to sit around with a Bourbon and coke, maybe a beer, and put down posts, but I don't. Can't even take cough syrup. You stay warm, and Dry. As cold as it is there, you won't have to worry about mud slides. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[timothy]

I'd like to see the flexing flick of the AK-47, I'm going to do a Google search.
Found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_E_GJayano

[Walt]

Well the front is here and the wind is humming goes right through you . With all the humi air here 40 here I think is worse then 25 in Ny. SF

[John Ace Hunt]

This thread is off subject. The nacelles had been in the vertical position for a hover to a spot landing, I would believe. I was wrong about the 45 degree position. The right engine failed, after an improper start the first time, and one had flamed out, and re-started in flight, not determined which in the report, as it was Not reported then. Never will find out from the black box as it was lost as stated. Wouldn't show the start of the mission, but could have been possible, if the mission had not been a long one. As in Helicopters, an engine loss of power wouldn't have caused a droop condition(a drop in Nr). The first reason of suspect after hard starts, and flame-outs, is Fuel contamination. They can find that out if they want to still, but believe the report will stand as is, unless command is changed, and the investigation is re-opened. I would hope the Marine Corps would be more through, as the reputation of Good Pilots, and crew is at stake. The contaminated Fuel should have been found in the Pre-flight, if that was the cause of engine malfunctions. Looks like its a done deal now though. At the First sign of engine malfunction, had I been the Pilot, would have aborted the mission, for an immediate landing else where in a Friendly spot if possible. READY-APP.

[lurch]

and they changed the crash speed to 75-80Knots IFAS .Shakespeer read the AIB report when IT came outta DENMARK ! :mad:! . Off topic ? GET EM Ace !cause what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander :D sf kc

[Joe Reed]

Joe,you & I go back a ways. Coming out of NAS,ADJ & BASHEL school.,I was cut orders for LTA,Santa Ana.,HMM 164.

Mike,
I had a harder row to hoe than that...I went to AD(R) school and no bashel! Went to HMM-365 which had UH-34Ds and was just beginning the transition to new CH-46 Super Ds. ALL OJT for me. Never turned a wrench on a 34 but did get to FAM school on the 46 and got to fly there some prior to RVN, which is why I REALLY appreciated the D and F models after the "A" models! Spent a lot of nights/weeks on Check Crew learning the bird before I was allowed to fly even as gunner! Was really glad to get to the Flight Line, most took it for granted, I never did!! HATED Check Crew!

[Walt]

Joe if you had come to 262 August of 66 you could have been a crew chief right out of A school thats where most of our crew chiefs xame from. We got 265's trash when they where getting ready to go to Nam. Took them on a carb cruise and had mostly short timers. We took 20 AC we where so short handed we only had 2 sections. I was one of the section leaders only had enough crew chiefs for 9 but was lucky the Captain's gig got loose and hit one of my AC causing rework damage. We used that bird for spare parts. Before the cruise was over I had both sections as the other section leader had to go home . When we got back to New River In August of 66 they transfered all the short timers and we received kids from A school but they learned quickly and most made real good Crew chiefs. SF

[Joe Reed]

In August of 66 they transfered all the short timers and we received kids from A school but they learned quickly and most made real good Crew chiefs. SF

Walt,
I just WISH I could have learned the bird with you. I was in 365 in 66 and we were just beginning to get the new Super "D"s. My "trainers" weren't nearly the Marine you were/are! Still, we got the job done on some old Alphas and we learned fast as well! Nothing like a trial by "combat"! LOL!

[John Ace Hunt]

Off Subject. Thought this was for posting about the V-22, not the 46, or 363. READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Lurch, hope they reopen it again. It needs it with a complete new Safety team. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Slick]

Believe the posts have expanded well past the intended purpose and scope of the thread