From: malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net [mailto:malcolmedwina@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: V-22 in Theatre
OOOOOOOOORRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHH! Thanks to Art Sifuentes for the picture. Wish I was there with them. Semper Fi, Y'all.
http://www.popasmoke.com/images/thundermark.jpg
I was part of the restoration crew that restored Mike Clausen's CH-46 dedicated in Charlotte, NC the Weekend of Oct, 20.
The Marine Corps sent one of the V-22 Osprey's to Charlotte to be part of the Static Display next to the CH-46, known as Blood, Sweat, & Tears.
The two Aircraft standing next to each other was a magnificent sight, and was very impressive for all who saw it. Particularly impressive was the landing and the takeoff of the Osprey. What a sight.
OORAH! Marine Corps! VMM-263 will be well received by the Marines and should be feared by the Enemy. I know the crew that I met in Charlotte, and the Marines who crew this Aircraft will do us proud. Carry 0n!
Dennis A. Craycraft
Last edited by racing agent; 10-31-2007 at 10:54.
Check out the CH-46's to the right of the Osprey! Still crazy after all these years. Those things were built during the Viet Nam war and still pulling! Carry On!Originally Posted by beddoe
new photo posted.
http://www.popasmoke.com/visions/image.php?source=11453
[SIZE="3"]If you haven't seen this link you should.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1914019/posts[/SIZE]
Brook Stevenson
9/'67 - 10/'68
Thanks to all of you..
The pictures are really very great...
Find out more on Cell Phones and Pandora 5.1
It appears that the Ospreys take off from a large deck by flying forward.
What a wonderful idea.
I recall the H46 ship departure procedure under these conditions as follows:
1. Lift into a hover over the deck in ground effect. Check guages and insure adequate power.
2. Slide sideways over the water. Make certain that the helicopter also has enough power to hover out of ground effect.
3. Proceed on course.
It was never clear to me what to do if the check in step 2 failed.
Ray... You never slid sideways over the water untill you had sufficient out of ground effect power to stay above the deck. If you didn't you kicked out some of your load, With the ship steaming into the wind I don't ever recall having to do that. Now on a hot day in an LZ with 22 troops and full fuel load, well.... that's another story..... Your post brings back a lot of old memories...s/f
Step 2
In HMM-165 on the Valley Forge (2/68) we had a crew find out! As the HAC headed out past the bow of the ship he lost an engine. Full load of troops and full load of fuel! The Navy made him fly the entire "Delta" pattern to get back to the ship, when they approached below the flight deck until and last "burst" of power from the CH-46A got them aboard, albeit with some rotor damage to that and two other parked a/c since they were unable to "sideslip" aboard due to lack of Nr!! Puckered everyone's fanny, but all walked away. We changed some blades and rotor heads (3) and one engine
Semper Fi
Joe
Phu Bai tower -YW-11 for Phu Bai DASC-
Remember, these are "A" models!
YW-11 BuNo-151939
'65 Model CH-46A
ON the Carb cruise before we deployed to Viet Nam . We had a pratice invasion while it was stll dark. The squids missed one chain on the left landing gear ,as the ac lifted off it hung for a second before the chain broke then all most went in sea side ways , scared the hell out of the crew and everone on the flight deck. That was as close as I ever saw of one going into the sea . Another time I saw the crew chief get left on the flightdeck as the pilot took off before he was backl aboard his ac, the long cord broke after allmost pulling his head off. SF
Losing the Crew Chief
Walt,Another time I saw the crew chief get left on the flightdeck as the pilot took off before he was backl aboard his ac, the long cord broke after allmost pulling his head off. SF
Walt is offline Report Post
Darrell Tygart was leaning on the CC door when they lifted off of a Carrier during his second tour with HMM-165! He fell out on the flight deck from WAY Up there! Shattered his L/arm and wrist and had t be med-evaced for advanced surgery. You just can't trust those latches!
Semper Fi
Joe
Phu Bai tower -YW-11 for Phu Bai DASC-
Remember, these are "A" models!
YW-11 BuNo-151939
'65 Model CH-46A
Just ask John "Ace" Hunt about those latches. I was just reading his story last week that Wally Beddoe did.
READY - SQUAT THRUST - BEGIN
I'm guessing then, that you gents didn't use gunners belts back then that would have prevented him from falling out of the A/C?
"Wild",
From your avatar, I can see that you were associated with 53s.
In my time flying as a gunner in 53s in '67 & '68, I can't recall
anyone wearing a gunner's belt.
The only connection with the helo was the ICS cords.
Of course, the pilot & CP were strapped in.
belts?
That would be a negative....For a Crew Chief to be encumbered with a belt with all we did in a CH-46 it would have been quite an ordeal!! We did use them on the odd times we had a tail gunner!I'm guessing then, that you gents didn't use gunners belts back then that would have prevented him from falling out of the A/C?
Semper Fi
Joe
Phu Bai tower -YW-11 for Phu Bai DASC-
Remember, these are "A" models!
YW-11 BuNo-151939
'65 Model CH-46A
[FONT="Georgia"]Belts? Now what are they !!! I don't believe I even worn them to keep my trousers up. In the 46 Joe you're right as a Crew chief most would want to keep on the move. I did however hear some stories about those that stay still ,me I didn't even want to sit . Sitting was the way you could get shot in the REAR. Didn't want that ![/FONT]
J.J. HALL( Jerry)
I can't remember if I wore a belt, that was a long time ago!
Semper Fi
Tim
I always remember wearing a gunners belt in the '34's. Many a time in my haste to get out of the A/C, I still had my belt on. I've seen the underside of many a '34.
MGYSGT FD BERMUDEZ
USMC (RET.)
Tim is right, we very rarely worn the gunner's belt. The only time that I used it was while I was working on the ramp. I pulled more than one team aboard through the ramp when we couldn't land. Other times, we were running up and down the cabin. I can understand being a crew chief on a CH-34, sitting by the door. One slip and it would be a loooong way down.
Sam Beamon
Vietnam 66 - 68
Yes Gentlemen, the V-22 is a machine with Great potential. I have reseverations about it though. I believe there should have been designed into it a system that below10-13 thousand feet the windows could be removed, and 50 cals. be swung in place that when in a landing situation the roto-props would be in a 45 degree to a full Helicopter rotor landing set. The guns would be able to be used during landing from an altitude of several hundred feet, and while un-loading troops in Hot zones. When the roto-props were in a verticle posisition for forward flight, the guns would not be able to be fired. My Squadron still has close to 2 years of existance in the 46. I believe in that time period I feel the major problems will be found, and all those 46's in moth Balls will be quickly put back into operation while its decided wether 50 to 80 or so million bucks per Aircraft is worth it on the V-22. The 46 still would be 20-25 times less the price per unit to this day. Since we(USMC), are going back to the quick assault type warfare the 46 is going to be all thats needed. There are problems with the 22 that are not known yet, and I would say several maybe major problems, that we do not know about, are trying still to be corrected. The Belts are in most cases not needed for a 46 Crew Chief, because for a Crew Chief to be a good one, he must be on the move in the 46 at all times. In the ****-pit, back to the engines,(opening the engine access doors to look for any suden leaks), checking the rear transmission for leaks, and what the grinding is, or wether the carbon seal is leaking fluid, re-setting the generators, looking out of the AirCraft for any possible mid-air collisions all around the Bird, and of course when needed, being on the Crew Chiefs Gun. A Crew Chief that just sits in his seat is worthless, and not a Crew Chief. I shudder to think some Birds were lost in Vietnam just because of that simple thing. The Crew Chief did not know what was going on. I have seen several videos of 46's going into the water just before landing on ship. Did they(ECA's) sense a low fuel pressure and shut down to idle RPM? The T-58-8, &-10 has engine condition actuators(ECA's) on each engine, an electronic gass peddle. If the Crew Chief had the engine doors open, and one went to idle RPM, he could grab the lever, and advance it to full power in time to save the Bird, and everyone on board. Full power spitting and sputtering was better than idle RPM, and loosing the Bird and possibly the Crew, and the people on board. It was mid-July'69, and EP-16 was taking off from the Iwo-Jima. I had just started to go below deck, and the Bird lifted off the Deck, hovered for ground effect, and as it went out over the water, lost out of ground effect power, and it nose dived into the Sea. Everone was saved, but the left seat had a bad broken right foot I believe. It was never known what happened, it just lost out of ground effect power on take off. The Crew Chief was Cpl. Jones. A very good Crew Chief. He worked very hard to keep his Bird ready to Fly. Things happen just in seconds for most any Bird to get into a crash condition. If the Crew Chief is tied down, kiss it all good bye in most cases. Most of the 34 Men, and a bunch of 46 Men knew this. You could not be tied down, and have the time to fire at gooks, or run to stop a bad leak, or if the co Pilot was wasted, and the HAC was wounded, you would have to help the Pilot Fly the Bird, or all would be dead in a very short time. I wouldn't want to be flying as Gunner and my Crew Chief was tied down. Think I'd go to mess duty. All have good ones, Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
When I went to the 261 reunion the CO briefed us on what they did in Afgan with the Osprey. He said they perfomed very good. They mounted a 7.62 machine gun on the ramp. Early in the cruise they ran about 80% up but as time went by it was down to 40 to 50 %. The day of the reunion their was only one that was misson ready and 3 that was flyable. Most of all of it was for parts. Toward the end of the cruise they took some hits in the skin no one was wounded during the tour.
When I flew CC in a 46 I never wore a belt but I never leaned out the front hatch either I all ways stuck my head our the window where the gun was. Its a wonder that more people didn't fall out of 34's . SF
Last edited by Walt; 10-14-2010 at 09:42.
Walt, I'm glad you posted about this. It just shows what I was saying about it when I posted on it earlier. They built the thing knowing there would be parts wearing out left and right. There was sand in 'Nam as well, but the 46 and others still flew didn't they? They are some bad design flaws that we are not being told about, I do believe. At 1st they had good percentages of up Birds, but as a short time went by, they started being grounded for lack of parts. It is at least a 50-60 plus million per Bird we are looking at. If they would take half the modifications off the 46, and keep them going, at least the troops could be inserted in the Combat zone, and not have to walk a long way the Fighting. To many IED's for that, plus the snipers. They plan to sell the 46's to other countrys when they all are replaced. Better believe that.!!!! Once they are gone, never to be back again. I doubt Boeing would build anymore 46's anyway. Not for 25 million a piece even. They run about 2 million still apiece, as they did when they were 1st made. In a lot of cases, older, IS better. I say they will start having major failures, like the 46 did after a bit. They blame it on the sand wearing the parts out, but it takes 2-3 times longer to work on the 22, than the 46 any day. To replace one little part, half the thing has to be dismantled. Thats why a number of Crew Chiefs were given very BIG bonuses to go over to the 22. I believe the 46 now has enlarged fuel tanks, for 5000 pounds of fuel, where in 'Nam we had only 2500 pounds. They still have a crew of 4, and can only haul 9-10 packs now because of it. In my souped up Alfa's, I've haulled 20 & 21 Packs before. That is a FACT. The little 7.62 gun on the ramp of the 22 does a whole bunch of good , doesn't it? They shoot at you from the front coming in for a drop off, then from the sides. But the little gun, is on the BACK ramp. It took a High Dollar engeneer to come up with that. Bet he never was in the Military, or Flew on a Combat mission. He was most likely a hippie protesting us in 'Nam for being there, now he is designing a machine that he knows is sub standard, for us to go die in. They haven't started falling out of the air yet, but they will, Every 50 to 70 million dollar one they have made. It angers me for them to get rid of one of the few Most succesful Birds in Marine Air History. Oh, they just to old. I would believe each engineer that designed the 22 is a multi- millionaire. The records should be checked some way. We will never know though. Have good ones all. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
On my last post here I failed to ask who woud like to be on the re-tests of flying on one engine, or without either left or right nacel? I feel the engineers should be in the 1st troop seats. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
That thing won't fly with one nacelle any more than the 46 would fly missing the fore or aft rotor or losing one blade or part of one blade. Single engine operation is a different thing, I don't know the spec on OEO ops on the VM-22. I know it won't auto-rotate which isn't a good thing, run on landings I don't think would work either. The prop rotors would strike the ground and tear the machine apart unless there is a break away part of the prop rotor which I doubt. There are a lot of unknowns about that machine, time will tell!
Semper Fi
Tim
Tim, I'll re- phrase it, I'd like to see the test with both nacels, and one of the engines shut down completely. Its susposed to fly with the cross shaft system from one engine to the other, but I certainly DOUBT it will. May not even get off the ground. That is with one in the Squadrons in afghan right now, not one made to do it off the line. I say one engine will not do it. Think they know beter than to believe it would. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
I 'd sure like to find out what ever happened to Ssgt or maybe Gysgt Jerry Greer.he was at atsugi went on the evac in 75 then ran 163s flight line in 77-78 @ LTA( MCAS (H) Tustin,Ca. went to work for Boeing Vertol as V-22 rep.
non illigitimus carborundumMAF gripe ... deadbugs on windshield...action taken...R&R with live bugs!
Lurch there should be a way to find him by checking with boeing. A mesage could be left him, and he get back to you. They may say,'we are not a message board,' something like that. Hope not. Just ask for a tech rep on the 22, and see if he knows him. Hope someone knows him, and will share his address with you. See if he will call you back. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Morning Ace , I tried that a couple of years ago after I saw him on the history channel and the military channel shows about the V-22 .No joy ! I even left messages on his E mail .I know he was in Iraq and Afganistan doing the tech rep thing !
non illigitimus carborundum
Hate that Lurch. Just have to hope someone reads where you are looking for him, and hope that he will get the message, and call you, or leave a message for you. I had a Marine Brother looking for me for 40 years, and heard my chatter there. He said he was going to give up, but didn't. Glad he didn't for sure. Hope the best for you in finding him. Call, or write the tv channel, they will get a message to him. Tell them, we will boycott the channel if they don't. Semper Fi, and READY-APP..
Jerry is on Facebook. His e-mail address is grier.jerry@yahoo.com
MGYSGT FD BERMUDEZ
USMC (RET.)
Lurch,
think I found contact info for Grier. Sent to you by seperate e-mail
Slick
Lurch hope that is still a good contact. I like to keep mine, but there are times when the address has to be changed. Please try soon. Thats Great, Thank you Slick. Semper Fi. and READY-APP.
Last edited by Ace Hunt; 11-21-2010 at 15:55. Reason: removed a few words.
Jerry and I have been in contact. I'm just glad he remembered me.Thank very much Slick ! Semper Fi to the POPASMOKE TEAM !
non illigitimus carborundum
Lurch, glad you were able to visit with the Gy. Greer. I have several I'm still looking for, but they are Army from when I was MP in Chu-Lai. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
non illigitimus carborundum
I heard that Lurch. I had the plans to get out either an E-7 or 8, But had to retire as a Cpl. That beats a dead Cpl. I should have fought it, but didn't know I could. Thats the way the ole ball rolls. Glad he got out a good rank, and is doing well. Have a good one. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Was easy- Turned the two bubbas at New River who work for me on a "locate and ID" mission. They did all the workJerry and I have been in contact. I'm just glad he remembered me.Thank very much Slick ! Semper Fi to the POPASMOKE TEAM !
Slick
Lurch, again, glad you were able to visit with him, and you now have his contact info. I thank all for the help. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Lurch I too am glad you was able to find each other after so long of a wondering. I know each time I dod get back with another one of the Guys its been with tears and Hugs, I mean what a REUNION ! Words just does not tell the feelings . Hope each of us can continue finding some more of them before its to late. That's a sorry fact.
J.J. HALL( Jerry)
I do not like the va telling me/us, that we will all be dead by 2015. There is susposed to be 399 of us dying every day, and its not going to be long before they say we will all be gone. The money they spend researching that, it could help many Vets. I have come to the conclusion that half the people working for them now was the ones we were being spit on by. Had I come home through an Airport, and been spit on and called everything, I was going to go to jail. Thats after busting some heads so they would not be able to do it after that. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both !
non illigitimus carborundum
Don't forget the 46 had it's growing problems with the aft pylon failures in the air and on the ground. Lost a lot of good friends because of a manufacturing defect! Love the phrog but give the 22 a chance.
Semper Fi
Tim
Lurch, my down on the 22 is because they can not be kept in an up status, without major maintenance. Its hard to get the critical parts even now. It'll be bad if they need them up, and can not get the parts. I agree with you. I'd say half needs to be 22, and half the 46-upgraded. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Tim, I believe 20 plus years is enough time to be given. The 46 problem was taken care of in less time, thats for sure. The 46 will end up being sold, then when the 22 is grounded for certain, just what are they going to do then? Yes, there were good friends lost on the 46, but I bet its a draw on the casualities so far, and how many friends were lost in the 22 crashes? They don't matter? They were someones friends too. Its 2-3 million- 46, verses 75 to 80 plus million per unit-22. I could half way care less anymore, as I don't have to fly on it, or fight in it. It'll never do what the 46 still can, That I know. It may swoop over the trees , but a button hook, with no guns that can be used for very long without making the user sick, it can't go into combat zones. The 46 still can, and will for awhile longer. I'm tired of paying taxes for something that will in a year or so have to be scraped. But what do I know? Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Have to get the Japanese to build them then. Boeing sold the license to build 46's to them years ago. --In 1965, Boeing Vertol sold the manufacturing rights of the 107 to Kawasaki Heavy Industries. Under this arrangement, all Model 107 civilian and military aircraft built in Japan are known as KV 107--Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both !
But in a related development-On 15 December 2006, Columbia Helicopters, Inc acquired the type certificate for the Boeing Vertol 107-II, and is in the process of acquiring a Production Certificate from the FAA. Plans for actual production of the aircraft have not been announced.
Wild, that is very good to know. Wonder why its taken over 4 years plus now, for the Faa to certify it? Sounds like money is involved to me. When the 22 is grounded, the 107II will have to be put into production, When they sell all the 46's. The program Helli loggers, has a souped up 47, and a 46. They call the 46 a vertol though. Looks like a reg. A modle to me. They say it costs the company 15 thousand Dollars per Hour to fly. It has lifted close to 4.2-3 tons of tree on the program. Its most likely one made from Japan, and flown in canada. Thank you for the info. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
This is a photo of a publicity stunt to promote New York Airways introduction of the new Vertol helicopter that was to be used in and around Manhattan. They planned to external the Ford Mustang all over the Island of Manhattan to get attention!
When the photo was taken, Vertol had not yet been acquired by Boeing.
The aircraft is still active and registered as N6676D. It is currently owned by Columbia Helicopters Inc. of Portland, Oregon. The serial number is six. The date of manufacure is unknown.
Thats great Ray. That could be the one in Eastwoods movie. Shortly after the tails started falling off in 'Nam, they dis-continued the Air Service in New York. Hate they didn't start back up after the problem was found and corrected. I believe that was the reason. Glad it is still flying today. I believe besides the Cobra, the 46 is the better looking Bird in the Marine Corps. It could do more than most any other Bird. That is except hauling over 25 Packs full combat gear. Thats where the 53 Heavy comes in. The 46, in my and others opinion, looks better than the 53. I believe beauty is in the eye of the be-holder.lol. Thanks again Ray. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Flashback alert
Would you believe this guy was enjoying R & R in Taipei and don't ask me how but I (we) ended up in a movie house watching Clint Eastwood "Coogin's Bluff" when POW - here's a 46 flying over the NY skyline - I needed another drink
READY - SQUAT THRUST - BEGIN
I remember that scene Dale ! 46 s have been in a lot of movies and sometime it does trigger a flash back ! hell all the time actually ! LOL .I know about the 107 II thats why I think we should build em ! with some IMPROVEMENTS ! carbon fiber tech and alloy tech have been vastly improved since the fifties and sixties . stronger engines more armament and new avionics,new blades.etc... I dont care if they cost ten million a copy or even 15 mil.the 46 could and still can fill a multi mission slot that no other aircraft in Naval aviation can ! I still think It's the best Helicopter the CORPS has ! that being said I think the V-22 s could vastly increase the projection of power and logistical support of marines on the ground.with a lot of improvements of its' own ! ACE you know plenty brother as do all my brothers here on PAS !
non illigitimus carborundum
I have a couple of good friends that used to fly the 107's for New York Airways when they used to land on the Pan Am Building in NYC.
Semper Fi
Tim
I remember when I was in HMX and we went to Ny to pratice landing on roof tops .mostly we landed where the 107 did it was kicks flying around all those tall buildings. If I remember right they went out of buisnees because they where losing money.
On the gunners belt I don't think any one normal wore one in 262. In 34's we wore them for externals and SAR pratice or for a real SAR but not for troop lifts or just boreing holers in the sky. SF
Last edited by Walt; 11-24-2010 at 10:16.
I think its around 34 or so in the V-22sf kc
non illigitimus carborundum
Dale, I had to do a double take as well. Thats one of the better scenes of the movie. Glad that Bird is still Flying. Hope you and all have a Great Thanksgiving. S/F, Brothers.
I do so agree Lurch. That makes the most sense I've heard in a long while. I've been harping on it as well, but you say it much better. The 22 is good to get reinforcements to places for the 46 to take them on in. Guns Blazing. If they would get a fleet of the newer 46's, I'd slack back on the 22 a whole bunch. They would Both have an important roll to play in our Corps. I enjoy the Helli Loggers. That brings back lots of memories. The last program, the 46 carried over 4.3 tons, but it was slick. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Thats Great Tim. Bet they loved it, almost as much as we did flying on them. Just curious, what was the reason They stoped the service with the 46? I've always thought it was the Aft Plylon problem, but never for sure found out. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Walt, that is Super. I can imagine the fun you Men had. I agree, a good Crew Chief had to be on the move way to much to use the Belt in a 46. I can see using it on the 34, as the Crew Chief is so close to the hatch all the time. Just hate there was not enough bussiness to make a profit for them. The program Helli-Loggers, they always say its 15 thousand Dollars an hour to operate it. That is an enormus amount of money. To think we flew turning 10 to 12 hours a day, that would be close to 200 thousand Dollars a day, per Bird. Now I see the profit margine loss. Semper Fi.
Thank you Lurch. I had thought it was close to that. The 22 is a good Bird, its just it would have a good number of problems going into zones we 46's did, and still do. The gun scopes on the 22 cause the gunner to get sick at the stomach a lot. Hate that. I do hope it is improved to a 50 cal.-360 bottom fire,then it would have a shoot out ability, and be there with the 46. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Not beating on Lurch. Just got on site. Reading. 20 yrs for V22 NOT. When I was in 8th grade. The Vtol was on Popular Science Mag. Watched this with hopeful ambition. This was L.B.J yrs. mid 60's. I was in HMLA-267 77-81. Buddy, Sean P. Joyce and his Bro-in law Gunny Leader first joined to do PAX river and exceptance flights at Bell. Lost them both at a 92 Potohmac River crash in 92. Too many moving parts. It's flight path kill zone is way too large, no recovery. Also with the acutual flights hrs spread over the years, it is a lot of loss. What, more than 18 on one crash? By the way, just asking, does it aways crash on it's top? Keep the 46/107. The 53 is Marine.Been Doing alot of research on the V-22 . Only 5 crashes and 8 notable incidents in 20 years is pretty damn good ! NO it's not the 46 ! it doesn't have to be ! I think they should remod the 46 and build em both !
Ace I seem to remember one rolling over on the roof top, they probably thought it was unsafe. But it also had to be quite costly. There are still helicopters landing on roof tops in NYC but much smaller ones.
Semper Fi
Tim
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