Rating combat wings

[beddoe]

If you can answer, contact BeruitBUL@aol.com
~Bytes

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <BeruitBUL@aol.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 02:06
Subject: COMBAT AIRCREW WINGS
To: webmaster@popasmoke.com

SIR, WOULD LIKE TO ASK QUESTION CONCERNING RATING COMBAT WINGS. OUR UNIT JUST HAD A 25 YR REUNION OF THE INVASION OF GRENADA. ALL OUR GUNNERS RECEIVED AIR MEDALS FOR COMBAT MISSION IN BOTH GRENADA AND BEIRUT. THE QUESTION IS A VERY SORE POINT WITH US GUNNERS SINCE THE CREW CHIEFS RECEIVED THEM. COULD YOU HELP? WE KNEW TOP CURTIS VERY WELL AS WE SERVE WITH HIM IN GRENADA AND BEIRUT.

T SMITH 82-86
BeruitBUL@aol.com

[John Ace Hunt]

Grenada and Beriut. Well I'll take a shot at this. Beriut Bul, you say after 25 years at a reunion the Squadron awarded the Crew Chiefs Combat Air Medals for the flying done there, and the Gunners did not recieve an Air Medal I should think. I would guess that is their right. 1st, it takes more than just a few Combat Missions before you are awarded the Combat Wings, which I'm sure the Crew Chiefs had before Beruit and Grenada from the flying they had done in Vietnam. I would think you can not be awarded an Air Medal when you don't have Combat wings. There would not have been enough Combat Flying for the gunners to get their wings done there, and then rate an Air Medal for it. There are 2 types of enlisted Wings. The Enlisted Air Crew Wings, gotten out of Air Crew School, and the Combat Air Crew Wings earned only in Combat. The Crew Chief and Gunner are the only Marines that earn Combat Wings. Both wings can not be worn at the same time. Before you can be awarded the Combat wings you have to fly at least a very good number of Combat missions before they are awarded. The 3 Gold stars on them show you engaged the enemy at least 3 times, taking fire, and returning it. In Vietnam you had to be in a combat zone and touch down, or fly fire support in support of that mission, before you were given 1 Combat mission credit, and when you engaged the enemy, you were given 2 mission points. Many of us 'Nam Crew Chiefs wonder if the Crews involved in the evacuation of Saigon were awarded Combat points, as many of us believe Saigon was not a Combat zone at that time. To my knowledge there was not one Bird that took fire, or returned fire during the evacuation. There may have been an Air Medal awarded for it, but I would not think more than one Air Madal was awarded for it. No big deal. If so many Crew Chiefs and Gunners recieved 100 plus combat points in the evacuation. Good for them. I believe if the Gunners flying in Beriut, and Grenada rated an Air Medal, they would have gotten one too. It takes 20 Combat missions before a Crew Chief, or Gunner can recieve an Air Medal. There are single mission Air Medals as well. Hope this in some way answers your question. Semper Fi, Ready-App.

[charlie/fltequip]

charlie/flt.equip. 263/66-67 here;
to my knowledge a crewmember, c/c or gunner, had to fly at least 20 missions to receive their first air medal and combat aircrew wings. I know this changed sometime after 1969, when they came out with strike/flight awards. I know the Grenada crewmembers were awarded combat aircrew wings but I don't know if they were permanent. I know in '66 era you had to have your 20 missions before they were permanent.

semper/fi
charlie

[mecollins]

The key words are "Air Crew" & the criteria for the award is the same for
any crew member regardless of their function aboard an aircraft.
The award should at least be entered on your DD214.
Missions & strike flights are also recorded on AAR's along with names of
pilots & all crew members.
AAR's can be used as supportive evidence in the event that the award does
not appear on the DD214.
All veterans are entitled to a one time replacement of medals & awards by
DOD with such evidence.
S/F

[Allan Holmes]

John, what are Enlisted Air Crew Wings, gotten out of Air Crew School?

Never heard of them.

Went over with HMM-165, then to 164.

Iffen you have the Enlisted Air Crew Wings, do you wear both?

[John Ace Hunt]

al, I didn't have the grades to go Choppers out of Jet School in Memphis, and had to extend for them after my 13 months were up in the 'Nam. I haven't seen a set of them, but from what I understand, they look like small Pilots Wings, and are Gold. Not sure when they were started. I may be wrong, but at least after '67-'68. I started training on EP-11 on april 22,'69, the Hoist Bird, then after 2 weeks, went to #13, the 'Goblin'. The month of May, I had 198 Combat missions, and at the end of the month was awawded my Good conduct, my Combat Wings/w the 3Gold stars, and was promoted to Cpl., at the same time. There is a directive out from the CMC that the Air Crew Wings can not be worn at the same time with the Combat Air Crew Wings. There is a choice though, you can wear either one, but I would prefer to wear my Combat Air Crew Wings rather than just the regular Crew Wings. The difference is which many civillians may not know is that the only way you can earn the Combat Air Crew Wings is when you have spent a good amount of time in Combat. Even Pilots can not earn combat wings. Thats reserved for us. I would believe you went through before the regular wings were authorized. Semper Fi, Ready-App.

[John Ace Hunt]

Charlie, the strike flight stars were in place the start of '69, and before I believe, as I had 4 missions to the Rockpile on the 22nd of April, and 16 missions at cordinates close to the DMZ on April 23 getting the 1st of 21 Combat Air Medals. I didn't get it then, as I didn't rate the Wings at that time. The 1st day I had 4 missions, and the last day I had 44. The last 2 days of Flying in Aug.,25th,35, and 26th,44, I had flown 89 missions into hill 55, with at least 4 more to go when the #2 engine blew the seals in it. The next day was my last take-off, as I was med-evaced then just after. Have a good one. Semper Fi, Ready-App.

[Jack Ubel]

I was amember of HMM 162 and was in Vietnam Jan-Jun 1963. We were issued Combat Aircrew wings w/3 stars on 20 May 1963. Our Air Medals were issued w/ Gold Stars. Numerals were not authorised until sometime in 1965 I believe. I still have my original orders.

[Joe Reed]

As I remember it we had to have 20 missions and 3 strike missions where we actually took fire to qualify for the Wings. The 20 Missions were easy , but some of us flew for several days/weeks without a "strike". Unusual in 1968 but it happened sometimes. Flew Many, Many resupplies without incident before we'd get the emergency Recon extraction or med-evac that would curl your toes. Once done you were glad it was over! Every 20 missions after that was and additional Air Medal, didn't require taking fire.

[cmm8946]

I believe that combat air crew wings were given at 40 missions.

Semper Fi

[John Ace Hunt]

Thats all well and good cmm8946, but the last day I flew, I had 44 Combat missions. If I had had a new gunner that did not have his wings yet, he certainly would not have gotten his Wings just for that one day. That I am sure of. It was more like a month plus, or a certain number of Combat missions. I recieved mine after 198 Combats, which just happen to have taken one month. I remember seeing the stats on the Wings , and the Air Medal, but not sure where it is on site.

[Slick]

As I remember it we had to have 20 missions and 3 strike missions where we actually took fire to qualify for the Wings. The 20 Missions were easy , but some of us flew for several days/weeks without a "strike". Unusual in 1968 but it happened sometimes. Flew Many, Many resupplies without incident before we'd get the emergency Recon extraction or med-evac that would curl your toes. Once done you were glad it was over! Every 20 missions after that was and additional Air Medal, didn't require taking fire.

what Joe said. 20 missions got you an air medal and the wings. Strike missions (shot at and returned fire) got you the stars on the wings. Those were the rules as I remeber them in 70-71

[lurch]

thats what I remember too Slick .but a lot of guys wore them with out stars if they were aircrew even if they had never been in country.I guess I caused a lot of heart burn because I said they should be wearing the gold aircrew wings. as the NATOPS NCO in HMM-165 I was prevy to thier records and they just didn't rate the combat crew wings with or with out stars .some of these people were quite senoir to me and I caught a lot of flack over it .

[RAJones]

My DD-214 says Air Combat wings with 5 stars. But your only allowed to have 3 on the medal. Why give something you can't wear?
Also My 214 says Air Medal with Star and I have ten seperate citations from 1 thru 10 telling me to put numeral 10 on it?
I'm lost. From what I have found, a star during 1968 was a single mission air medal not for bravery.
The number 10 was for the 228 missions. First Air Medal 20 missions plus 10 more?
Make any sense. I am finally trying to dig out my history for the VA and they want me to find out about myself and what I did. I have most of it locked up somewhere in my head.
Thanks
Bob

[Dale A Riley]

RA - I am far from expert on these matters but after I left Quang Tri and went to HMM-365 at New River I received an "Air Medal (bronze star for first award)" for HERIOC ACHIEVEMENT IN AERIAL FLIGHT on 25Sept69 for an action 25March69 six months earlier. It came with an attached citation describing the mission blah-blah. I was told to put a star on ribbon next to the numerals. I have no idea why that day was picked out from all the others I remember as more hairy but re-reading it now I sound pretty impressive

[RAJones]

Thanks for the feed back. It really helps.
Bob

[RDPayne]

RA,
This is an excerpt from the ACTS Manual, MCO P1000.6G dtd 6 May 99.
I was a gunner with HMM-165 in 1967-68 and with 462 in 1973-74
My memory isn't perfect either, but it seems to be the same to me.
I've been in other units as well and I saw crew members wearing the wings with fewer than three stars and with no stars.
I think the following may help:

3310. COMBAT AIRCREW INSIGNIA

1. The Combat Aircrew Insignia may be authorized for those aircrewmen
qualified under para- graph 3309, who have participated in aerial flight
during combat, and those enlisted personnel who qualify for nontechnical
aircrew positions and serve in such positions in aerial combat.

2. Unit commanders may designate as combat aircrewmen, and authorize the
wearing of the Combat Aircrew Insignia, those enlisted personnel who
satisfactorily meet the prerequisites listed below. Make an appropriate entry
(to include any authorization for combat stars earned under paragraph 3310.4)
in the Marine’s record per current instruction.

3. The prerequisites for designation as a combat aircrewmen follow:

a. The Marine must be a volunteer for combat aircrew duty.
b. The Marine must be qualified per physical and psychological
requirements of the Manual of the Medical Department.
c. The Marine must be a regularly assigned member of a flight crew in an
aircraft participating in combat operations.
d. The Marine must be a graduate of an established course of instruction
and/or OJT qualifying the Marine for a position in the flight crew of a
Marine aircraft.3-22 ACTS MANUAL 3310

4. Combat aircrewmen who have qualified to wear combat stars may wear the
Combat Aircrew Insignia on a permanent basis. A maximum of three combat stars
may be awarded for display on the Combat Aircrew Insignia. The criteria for
earning individual combat stars (which are authorized by unit commanders) are
as follows:

a. Engagement of an enemy aircraft.
b. Engagement of an enemy vessel with bombs, rockets, torpedoes, guns or
missiles.
c. Participation in offensive or defensive operations against enemy fortified positions.

5. A Marine who is qualified to wear both the Naval Aircrew Insignia and the
Combat Aircrew Insignia has the option of wearing the one of his choice.
Requests for verification of combat aircrew status must include sufficient
documentation to substantiate compliance with the prerequisites. Address all
inquiries concerning this insignia to the CMC (ASM).

6. The combat aircrew designation will be canceled by the unit commander whenever the flight status of the Marine is terminated because he is no longer physically, psychologically or technically qualified for combat aircrew duty,or because he is transferred to a billet in which duty involving flying is not required. Unless the Marine has qualified for permanent retention under paragraph 3310.4, the authorization to wear the Combat Aircrew Insignia is revoked upon cancellation of the designation.

Hope it helps!
Semper Fi!

[george mckee]

in reference to combat wings i submitt from my own designation dated 23 feburary 1965 and signed by Lt. Col. Joseph Koler:

combat aircrew insignia, authorization for wear

ref: (a) 8055 marcorpersman

1. between 8 october and 19 february 1965 you were designated and assigned as a regular crewmember of a combatant aircrat. while on duty as a combat aircrewman during this period you have engaged in offensive and defensive operations against enemy fortified positions on three or more occasions.

2. in accordance with reference (a) you are authorized to wear the combat aircrew insignia, with three stars, on a permanent basis.

3. this authorization will be made part of you official record.

[R.T.Foster]

Exactly the way it's typed out on my paperwork (different dates) REPEAT...........my most prized possesion. semper fi,,,,,frateres aterni

[RAJones]

Thanks guys. My ex pitched all my papers except one and I am trying to rebuild my info. My 214 says 5 stars regs say you may only wear 3. Go figure. Anyway thanks for the answers. And thanks Dale for the answer on the Air medal star. I have no idea why. Again papers are lost and long gone.
Bob

[Wayne Stafford]

Yeah, the ex got my Combat Aircrew Wings, dog tags and P-38. But, we're living in the Bonus Round so life is good.

Wayne Stafford

[george mckee]

awfully curious as to how you would display five stars as the wings are prepunched with three holes. if a total is kept, by whatever means, after the three strikes that enables the marine to wear the wings on a permanent basis, some would have stars in excess of 100 or more.

[hma1369]

From the Uniform Regs: "Gold stars, up to a total of three, as merited, will be mounted on the scroll, necessary holes being pierced to receive them. A silver star may be used in lieu of three gold stars."

I guess you would show 5 stars as 1 silver and 2 gold stars, with the silver on your right.

[RAJones]

Thanks Gotta look that one up.

[John Ace Hunt]

I had 423 combat missions as Crew Chief, and my DD-214 tells me I rate the Combat Air Crew Wings with 3 Gold Stars, as I had 21 strikes, and rate 21 Combat Air Medals. No more than 3 Gold stars are authorized, and the number of Air Medals are shown by numerals. I have my complete Flight record to prove it, as well as the DD-214 which shows the Air Medal with numeral 21, signifying the 21 Air Medals. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

[george mckee]

next time you have a couple of hours, google combat aircrew wings and read til your hearts content. two references state that a maximum of three stars may be worn on the device..........but.....a silver star may be exhanged for each set of three gold stars. so a person with nine gold stars could have three silver stars. or thats the way i read it. no mention of what happens to the guy with over 400 missions or rates more than 3 silver stars. whew. what say you?

[John Ace Hunt]

Hi George. I guess in that case I am susposed to wear 7 silver stars, on the wings, with only 3 holes, and I still have to wear the numeral 21 on the Combat Air Medal, the shine has worn off, so not sure if they were gold numerals or Bronze, but you have to wear numerals for the number of awards of the Air Medal, instead of stars. My case its numeral 21 as stated Thats what the 214 tells me. The thread went from Air Crew Wings and Combat air Medals to the heat, and rocking in Reno, and sending pictures. I don't know. I'm just going to wear what my 214 tells me to wear. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

[Joe Reed]

The "other" stars are for single mission Air Medals, etc. After the initial three strike missions where the wings are earned, every 20 additional missions rates an additional Air Medal. Soooo Ace up above, for instance, wears the numeral 21 to denote a minimum of 420 missions. 440 would be 22 ,etc.
It's all good!

[John Ace Hunt]

Joe I agree. I will just stick with the 3 gold stars, as the silver ones would take away from the sharp Combat Wings, I believe, even though I'm susposed to rate 7 silver stars somewhere for the 21 Strikes I had, The last 2 days with the same HAC, I had 79 externals into LZ-211. 35 loads of 155 projectiles the 25th, and the 26th,Aug. had 44 loads of the charges the 155's used. The last day of flying, before being med-evaced out, on the 1st mission, which was the 36th of the two, ran into 211 the snipers decided we had our guard down, and poped us. Well we took them out, and had 43 more before blowing the #2 on the 44th mission that day. We were hauling heavy loads too. I believe we could have gotten at least 85 plus if the #2 had not given out. My Flying ended the next day. It was indeed an Honor to be one of the Best Group of Men the Marine Corps ever had, and would not change a thing. We all had guts, or we would not have been a Crew Chief. The 1st 2 days of flying I had 22 Combats, and the last 2 days went to 79 Combats. Sure wanted to fly the last month with 265, before extending to another Squadron, but it just wasn't meant to be. God was Very Good to me, as he let me live. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

[stonko34]

All this conversation about Air Crew Wings really has me confused. Us Korean vintage Rotor Heads didn't have any of this hardware except the Air Medal earned for 15 missions into the Red Zone (enemy territory). Guess I'm just jealous. Anyway, bless you boys, you definitely earned them.

[stonko34]

All this conversation about Air Crew Wings has this old guy confused. Us Korean vintage Rotor Heads didn't have any of this hardware. The only award was the Air Medal given after 15 missions in the Red Zone (enemy territory). Gunners usually were armed with service 38's in shoulder holsters. I guess I'm just jealous. Anyway you guys certainly deserve whatever you got for the sh-- you had to go through. Semper Fi!

[mclayton]

Thanks guys. My ex pitched all my papers except one and I am trying to rebuild my info. My 214 says 5 stars regs say you may only wear 3. Go figure. Anyway thanks for the answers. And thanks Dale for the answer on the Air medal star. I have no idea why. Again papers are lost and long gone.
Bob

Bob,

You can get a complete copy of all of your military records by going to this site ......

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/

and submitting a form SF-180.

This military records center is located in St. Louis where I live. If you cannot get them sent for some reason, you can schedule an appointment and designate a representative to get your records in person and copy them. I would be more than happy to be your representative if necessary. However, submitting the form SF-180 should work and be just as fast (4-8 weeks).

I flew many missions with the "Evil Eyes" in 34's and would be glad to help.

[accs]

For a friend I submit the following attachments for viewing:

Doc #1 is

The Flight Line Vol #2 #5.doc

Doc #2 is

The Flight Line Vol #2 #6.doc