Question for the "22' supporters

[johnyr46]

What a/c in the Marine Corps inventory will take the place of the 46 in the following situations.

1: Emergency Medevac when the casualties can't be transported to a secure area for p/u by the 22?

2: If we get involved in jungle warfare or anywhere else that wheeled or tracked vehicles can't be used, who will resupply troops in need of food and/or ammo, medevac etc.

3: If the 22 will be used in an emergency, how will they protect themselves if they have to hover or sit in a hot zone while loading or unloading troops, cargo, medevacs etc.

5: As I understand it, because of cost, the "22" is not to be used in these situations. How much is a marine's life worth.

6: The C 130 seems to be able to accomplish most of what the 22 can do. No verticle t"o or landing but can do short field t/o and landings and can haul a bunch more than the "22".

I understand the 46 needs to be replaced. What I don't understand is why our Marine Corps has put all of its eggs in what I deem to be a boondoggle of epic proportions. Even the Army decided the helicopter was better than this. Hell the Air Force, I'm sure loves it because they love expensive toys.

IMO our marine Corps would be much better of keeping more helicopter squadrons albeit with new, better helicopters.

Keep a few squadrons of the "22" to save face and do what they're capable of.

I see this boondoggle as a danger to our marines in the field, not because of their flight record, but because of what they Can't do for our marines in the field. I hat it that we'll end up depending on the Army to handle our life and death issues. I remember going into zones in Viet Nam that Army medevac a/c deemed to dangerous. I don't remember our pilots in HMM 161, 68/69, refusing to try in life and death situations.

[Jardo Opocensky, Jr.]

Gee
I think we have Hueys.
They are twice as big as the Nam era models and have 10 times the power.
Problem sloved

[John Ace Hunt]

johnnyr46, we die, don't get the re-supply, and have to walk out of the place. I do not believe the huey CAN, even though its bigger?, and 10 times more power?. If thats the case they can stop building 22 squadrons, scrap them at 90 million and more apiece, all the 46's in storage, and boneyard, and make the Marine Corps Aviation all hueys. You are very correct in the army not having the Guts to come into a really bad zone, and save a Marine. They won't even do it for themselves, much less, and especially for we Marines. Notice the people against the 46 seem to be huey and others. The 46 is another 52, wether anyone believes it or not. Oh, thats right, its to old. Well the 52 has an indefinate life, but the most needed one the 46 must be done away with. I'll laugh the day they really need them, and don't have a one. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Jardo Opocensky, Jr.]

No one is against the 46.
It's a great Bird and it should be updated and continue to serve.
BUT
They are not fast enough and don't have the range for the new requirements of the Corps.
The question was, what can do medivacs due to the 46 retiring? Answer is the HUEY.

[BartClu]

johnnyr46, we die, don't get the re-supply, and have to walk out of the place. I do not believe the huey CAN, even though its bigger?, and 10 times more power?. If thats the case they can stop building 22 squadrons, scrap them at 90 million and more apiece, all the 46's in storage, and boneyard, and make the Marine Corps Aviation all hueys. You are very correct in the army not having the Guts to come into a really bad zone, and save a Marine. They won't even do it for themselves, much less, and especially for we Marines. Notice the people against the 46 seem to be huey and others. The 46 is another 52, wether anyone believes it or not. Oh, thats right, its to old. Well the 52 has an indefinate life, but the most needed one the 46 must be done away with. I'll laugh the day they really need them, and don't have a one. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

Seems to me that there are still 53's operational & I beleive the army 47 is still in production. I'm not knocking the 46, but either the 53 or 47 could fill heavy lift to tight zone void. The Huey (my bird) did fine for MedEva, recon, plus all lite utility missions. A few Sq's of 22's would fill a nice nitch for longrange fast transport missions like Sparrow Hawk etc. Only thing I disagree with is depending to much on any 1 bird...

[emckinnie]

ANSWER;

POLITICS AND NOTHING ELSE


S/F

ed

[Joe Reed]

I'm not knocking the 46, but either the 53 or 47 could fill heavy lift to tight zone void. The Huey (my bird) did fine for MedEva, recon, plus all lite utility missions. A few Sq's of 22's would fill a nice nitch for longrange fast transport missions like Sparrow Hawk etc. Only thing I disagree with is depending to much on any 1 bird...

Our Corps will STILL have the CH-53 and the UH-1 in several variations. The MV-22 is filling a void that we can't otherwise fill. We aren't landing at Hill 881, An Hoa or in the Ashau Valley's surrounding LZs under fire any longer. If we DO get to that we'll use the '53 or 4 bladed Huey. Really...we'll be okay with this bird. It is ALREADY safer and at least as productive our our beloved Phrogs were in 1967. (apples to apples here folks)

The question was, what can do medivacs due to the 46 retiring? Answer is the HUEY.

Only if very close in...The far away locales like those in Iraq and Afghanistan require the 280+ knot speed of the MV-22. It ain't like it was only 5 clicks to Charlie Med, etc. like we had at RVN....

[John Ace Hunt]

I doubt there is really a Bird in Marine inventory that can and will do what the 46 can and does now. It has to be proved to me. Its certainly not the 90 million dollar job. They held the 53's out of Hot zones as they cost to much to be lost one time, and they will do it again. The 4 blade huey, well certainly doesn't have more fuel than a 46, and the lift capacity of the 46, but there are a lot of them. I will laugh when they have to have the Phrog, and there are not any. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Jardo Opocensky, Jr.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1Y_Venom
Check out the credentials.
My old E model HUEY had 1100SHP (540 system) 204's had 900SHP
This thing has TWO 1500SHP engines.
I can't even thing of what we could have done with that much power.

I believe the A model 46 had twin T-58's rated at about 1250SHP ea

[arin_dog]

I, as a UH-1Y crewchief, think that our a/c is very capable of taking over a majority of the Phrogs missions. Granted the yankee doesnt have the kind of airspeed the 46 has nor the lifting power, it is able too and IS carying out the majority of 46 roles in theatre. Both huey squadrons that were recently deployed to Afghanistan have claimed that they were the primary aircraft taking the load of Casevacs and troop resupply in there AO's. The extended range with the yankee opposed to the UH-1N series makes it completely capable of carrying out missions without the need to constantly refuel, and the increased available power we are able to carry ridiculous amounts of ammo to support the TIC(troops in contact) portion of the mission with increased time on station. The 46 is undoubtedly coming to the end of its service life, an awesome life at that, but never the less coming to an end. The 22 in theatre has shown to not be the greatest choice for resupply and insert/extract missions in confined areas nor under heavy fire so at this point the Huey is the wisest choice the marine corps could and has made, plus its proven itself in combat time and time again.

[Joe Reed]

I believe the A model 46 had twin T-58's rated at about 1250SHP ea

Correct, Jardo! The "D" went to 1450 but it was a heavier bird than the UH-1N. We could usually lift no more than 3000# with our Alphas. Even my bird, which was a very good Alpha, couldn't lift 4,000# on a hot day in country....That was easy for Ds and Fs....The Es are even stronger and have much more fuel capacity than we had. Do yo know what the Yankee model UH-1 can regularly lift and transport?

[arin_dog]

our max gross is 18,500, basic weight is 11,500, so with crew, fuel, DAS mounts with deuce-LAU61's and the .50 cal & GAU-17 w/ full ammo, it gives us about 2k lbs to play around with, and even with max weight its not fictitious to say we could easily pull a max power takeoff out of a CAL with no problem... but in the mountains of Afghanistan that may be a different story with the extenuate altitudes.. but i have complete faith in my platform that it kicks ass and truly believe its one of the MAGTF's greatest assets in this modern day battlefield, at least in the theatre our combat elements are concentrated in i.e Afghanistan.

[John Ace Hunt]

arin-dog, Joe, this one is sand, distance, and mountains. Whats the next one going to be after Afghan? Chances are it'll be another 'Nam terrain, or similar, like somewhere in africa? It may be the big bad one won't be good for anything except long fast hauls, or not even work the mission at all. Where will the Corps be then? Up the creek with no 46's thats where its going to be. But its old, tired, not needed, and needs to be gotten rid of. That will be bad. If they are all in storage, or worse as I read it, was going to be sold to other countries, think they will give them back. Not hardly. But we have the hueys. *Ta-Da!!!.* They will save the day. Don't believe they will. I believe whats left of the 46's are E's and F's, and there are no more a's that are limited to 1-1/2 ton haul. But what do I know? I know its a mistake at least. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

Hey Dog are those four bladed hueys quiter than the old two bladed jobs and whats the ride like ? I've seen video of the new electric .50 cal man that thing slings the rounds out ! I stand corrected on an earlier post when I said no single barrel fifty could do that ! I still "DREAM " the CORPS could get the CH-46 X with four blade heads (LOL TYPED BALD HEADS THE 1ST TIME ) and the super power eng ,250 max air speed ,extended range, etc. I'm writting a letter to some "politicos I know" .DO they have a four bladed cobra ?

[Mike Amtower]

Sure do, Lurch.

That's the AH1Z ..... had one at Reno, last.

[lurch]

thanks Mike ! I gonna swoop and check it out on you tube ! they got some kool helo video on there from OVER THERE ! sf kc

[Joe Reed]

Chances are it'll be another 'Nam terrain, or similar, like somewhere in africa?

Sorry Ace...We'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. No Jungle in the Afghanistan area as far as know and by have the MV-22 fly these longer distance med-evacs to to really well equippe medical facilities, the Marines and soldiers have a MUCH better chance at survival than you and I ever did in RVN, simply because they get there so quickly! The big Yankee model Huey will have to do the short range stuff, and it looks like it has the power and range to do it, combined with the space inside the airframe. What's not to like about that scenario??

Don't believe they will. I believe whats left of the 46's are E's and F's

Ace,
the F's were ALL converted to "E" status and configuration years ago, fyi, No more Fs around. When were gettingthe new Fs in 1969 we wondered what happened to the E....Now we know...the mod wasn't ready yet.

[mecollins]

thanks Mike ! I gonna swoop and check it out on you tube ! they got some kool helo video on there from OVER THERE ! sf kc

Lurch,
Check out the "Patrick's Aviation" site sometime. I believe it was either Joe or 'Sturk' that passed it on to me. More pics & vids than fleas on a pack of Blue-tick hounds.
CONTENT WARNING !!!: There's a vid on the site of a Canadian A/F H-47 putting on a demo for the media that made my stomach churn a bit & red-lined the PFM. LOL
The 'driver' put that bird thru "mo' move anna good dose o' 'EcLac'. Even made the film crew & ground support people scatter. Priceless
Craze

[Jim Wilkening]

I, as a UH-1Y crewchief, think that our a/c is very capable of taking over a majority of the Phrogs missions. Granted the yankee doesnt have the kind of airspeed the 46 has.

Actually, if you look it up the UH-1Y is Faster than the CH-46E. I still think 46's are a symbol of USMC air, and hate to see them go.

[Dale A Riley]

I can't think about such things as 46 vs 22 as I am still trying to get over the day they took my REAL rifle and handed me an m-16

[johnyr46]

In my original thread I admitted that the 46 needs to be replaced. Maybe if they had kept building and improving like the evidently did the Hueys i would be a different story.

Check out htis link where the Army is doing our medevacs in Afghanistan.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40533246..._central_asia/

Is the Corps putting more of these super Hueys in service? Are they forming more squadrons of Hueys?

If the 53 is capable of doing what the 46 has been doing, why were they used so little vs the 46 in VN? They and the 47 are both great heavy lift airframes but they just won't fit in the same places where we need the meddium lift platform.

Everything I've read says the 47 and 53 can do what the MV22 can do only slower with less range.

In our current wars the 22 can do medevacs where ground vehicles can get the wounded to a safe area. The fact is the 22 cannot in anyway protect itself.

Does the Corps believe we will never need the jungle capabilities again?

Personally I would not want to crew an a/c that was put in harms way and couldn't protect itself. That old .50 cal sure made me feel better when we were taking fire in a hot zone. I would feel pretty helpless in a 22 knowing that I was like a duck on a pond while sitting on the ground even with the belly gun they are experimenting with.

[hma1369]

Is the Corps putting more of these super Hueys in service? Are they forming more squadrons of Hueys?

HMLA-367 and HMLA-369 have already traded in their N models for the Ys. The West Coast HMLAs (169, 267, 469) transition first followed by the East Coast (567, 467, 167, then 269), then HMLA-773 in the Reserves. HML/A-269 will be the last active squadron to transition (FY 2013).

If the 53 is capable of doing what the 46 has been doing, why were they used so little vs the 46 in VN? They and the 47 are both great heavy lift airframes but they just won't fit in the same places where we need the meddium lift platform.

The 53 A/Ds were heavy-lift vs the medium-lift 46s. Now the Ds are classed as medium-lift. The CH-53E is the current heavy-lifter.

Everything I've read says the 47 and 53 can do what the MV22 can do only slower with less range.

In our current wars the 22 can do medevacs where ground vehicles can get the wounded to a safe area. The fact is the 22 cannot in anyway protect itself.

Some MV-22s are being equipped with the GAU-17 turret system with a 7.62mm minigun. There's talk of mounting a .50 cal on the ramp.

Does the Corps believe we will never need the jungle capabilities again?

While the main areas of current operations are Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean, which have little or no jungles, the 31st MEU (WestPac) operates throughout the Southeast Asia region.

Personally I would not want to crew an a/c that was put in harms way and couldn't protect itself. That old .50 cal sure made me feel better when we were taking fire in a hot zone. I would feel pretty helpless in a 22 knowing that I was like a duck on a pond while sitting on the ground even with the belly gun they are experimenting with.

[John Ace Hunt]

johnyr46, the 53 cost to much to be used a lot in 'Nam. Its bad planning to base all our next wars on flat sand like afghan. Many of the places we may be fighting in next have the same terrain as 'Nam. But believe they know that. The huey is not a save all Bird. Be good if it was. Think its all bad planning. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

The 46 does NOT need to be replaced. It can do more than any huey can wether anyone likes it or not. The huey can not do a button-hook, no way. The 46 can, did, and with the right Pilot, can do it again. But, its to old, and needs replaced. With what? They have nothing that can out do the 46 even now, and they are still shuting them down. Yep, the new boy can out fly it, as its fast. I do believe thats all it has going for it. I'll be the 1st one day, to say, 'I told you so', Yep, I told you so. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[RetiredMarine]

I totally agree, I was with the CH-46 for most of my 22 years in the Corps and a better AC I never seen. True the AF and componets are old and need to be replaced and even some stronger maybe externally mounted engines would be good. But a better AC can't be found. Half of the money put into R&D for the V-22 would have been more than enough to get the line started back up for the CH-46 and it is a proven AC, unlike the V-22 which is still tring to prove it self.

[John Ace Hunt]

I agree with you as well RetiredMarine. I will express my opinion when the 46 is despertely needed, and they don't have any, especially when the 22 is grounded. I believe as you do. It was just money in boeings pocket. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[Dale A Riley]

Sounds like they got the bugs out, but maybe not enough buck$ in.
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141589693/the-osprey-good-reviews-but-a-costly-program

[Wild Snide]

Sounds like they got the bugs out, but maybe not enough buck$ in.
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141589693/the-osprey-good-reviews-but-a-costly-program

Lool at the organization who published the article, NPR, Nuf' said

[1chuck]

Question for the 22 people. The other night I was waching either the military channel or discovery and they had this BS about all the things the 22 can do and showed a training exersize where when they picked up the troops they were rescuing the rear ramp was only partially down. Having been a grunt for a long time with a pack on my back and full load that would have been the last thing I wanted to see. Will the rear ramp not go all the way like the 46 and 53/? Also the narrator kept calling it the seahawk what was that all about

[BartClu]

The 46 does NOT need to be replaced. It can do more than any huey can wether anyone likes it or not. The huey can not do a button-hook, no way. The 46 can, did, and with the right Pilot, can do it again. But, its to old, and needs replaced. With what? They have nothing that can out do the 46 even now, and they are still shuting them down. Yep, the new boy can out fly it, as its fast. I do believe thats all it has going for it. I'll be the 1st one day, to say, 'I told you so', Yep, I told you so. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

"The huey can not do a button-hook, no way." Wrong...not sure about the
"N, y & Z" modles but the "good" stick jocks in did them in 66/67....only problem ...it was a tad hard on the C C's skives when the old "salts" were teaching it to the NEWB's

[hma1369]

Individual Action Air Medals awarded to MV-22B crew from VMM-264:
http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/Pag...mmonaward.aspx

[Joe Reed]

"The huey can not do a button-hook, no way." Wrong...not sure about the
"N, y & Z" modles but the "good" stick jocks in did them in 66/67....only problem ...it was a tad hard on the C C's skives when the old "salts" were teaching it to the NEWB's

Samie same with the CH-46 H2Ps learning buttonhok approaches and NIGHT CARRIER QUALS!!! WOW!! I figured if I lived through those the "real" ones would be easy.....I was almost right!!! I have a lot of stick time in the left seat, but never got to land on a carrier...Always thought I could....

[1chuck]

The problem as I see it is that the Corps is being asked to do things that should never have been it's mission. We are or at least were assualt troops to assualt and hold for the army to take over we are now being asked to assualt and hold w/o any hope of the army every helping. Wrong mission for wrong troops. get back to assualt preferably ocean born assualt. We are Marines not Army for pete sake

[Ray Norton]

Regarding doing a buttonhook in a '46: As a pilot I happen to believe executing a buttonhook is a lot easier than changing an engine in the field. I have done the first and observed the second.

[Joe Reed]

Ray,
I have done both and either can be accomplished with the right Marine doing he training! Running out of Nr and altitude at the same time is a skill "acquired" from a talented HAC. We snuffies taught lotsa guys to change engines, just took longer to accomplish! LOL!